So because you lost one game you hink that Caroleans can win vs Changdao while their stats would suggest otherwise?
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Sorry I didn’t save it.
Anecdotal evidence doing it’s thing once again
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Experiment:
No upgrades, both on their starting ranks, and at close distance.
The image I shared yesterday showed that even with the changdao’s discipline upgrade, all but siege and movement speed remained lower than carolean’s stats.
If all stats are lower, the only way changdao’s defeated your caroleans was bad micro, or maybe you just assumed they were the ones doing the damage, when a unit behind them was the responsible one (There could’ve been a sneaky flamethrower between them doing all the work, remember there is an age 3 card that sends a mixed regiment of them).
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For the meme of having carolines…*carolean prayer sounds…
Of course, lastly you could turn the Caroline into a skirmisher and leave the normal Musketeer or add a unique skirmisher to the Swedes…
Because the musketeers are heavy infantry, and the heavy infantry (pikemen, halberdiers and the musketeers themselves) counteract the cavalry.
Yes, in the Baltic DLC they will surely rework some Euro civs (Sweden, France, Great Britain, Spain, Portugal) and balance several UUs…
Yes, it is most likely…
Personally, I’d love to see something like that. It would also make Caro/pike more sensible.
I’d suggest a low range skirm with high hp and probably two pop. The smaller army footprint would actually work well in that situation, as well as being historically accurate given that the Sweden had a fairly small population.
Personally, I’d suggest stats something like:
Carolean
110f, 70c, 2pop.
300hp with 30% rr.
Speed 4.5
Ranged Attack 20 (default skirm multipliers). 2.5 rof. 12 range (+1 range with each upgrade).
Siege Attack 20
Melee Attack 20 (default skirm multipliers). 1.5 rof.
Obviously it would still have the charge ability. This would help a lot in pairing with other units and as has been suggested, the Swedes could be given regular musks.
Snaplock and Platoon Fire could be changed to something else.
basically a ranged urumi, in practice (without the splash to compensate)
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The leather cannon already takes that role (despite not able to counter dragoons).
I think carolean could somewhat get its small ranged multiplier to all cavalry back (if countering dragoon is a problem), as long as it is not also super effective against other heavy infantry at range too.
Historically caroleans are not really skirmishers, not typical line infantry either, but more like an assault unit marching in lines.
I get that, but Sweden’s unit comp is kinda awkward. Lots of anti cav, but the lack of an actual skirm is kinda awkward.
Leather Cannons are kinda a skirm, but they’re also countered by Culvs which can really hurt sometimes. Not to mention being countered by goons. Sometimes you’d rather have an actual skirm.
Even as I suggested, they’d be kinda an aggressive assault skirm good at breaking infantry in melee but weak to melee cavalry. I don’t think that would be unfaithful to what you’ve said from a historical perspective. I’m making the suggestion with gameplay in mind.
I’d also kinda like to see Hakka/Caro and pike/caro be valid unit comps.
Yes, you always feel like you’re missing something…because the leather cannon is a falconet but an age earlier; the caroline is a weak musketeer and the hakkappelite is a dragon/ruyter but weaker…you’re still missing a skirmisher and a stronger equivalent to the hussar because otherwise the only thing you have left is to resort to mercenaries like Holland does…
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By the original design, Swedes should be using jaeger as skirmisher, black rider as dragoon, that’s why the their original rosters were lackluster and carolean and hakkapelitt did not fill in those roles.
Turns out that did not work well so their regular units went through a rabbit hole and got tweaked into totally different units.
To clean up our minds I think it would be helpful to refer to their very original purpose: carolean don’t have to be multipurpose units and take the role of others. It should just be a musketeer with its own musketeer gimmicks. I never liked it becoming a multipurpose unit so I think its role should be restricted more radically, meaning even more restricted than the first version, like a fast, short range, melee focused musketeer.
By design Swedes should have a lackluster roster and use mercenaries (an aspect that is now almost forgotten) to compensate for that. If carolean is no longer an everything-counter then they should be forced to use mercenaries. That also represents Sweden’s small population and reliance on small, elite army.
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They do have strong Hussars
I mean, that it is a UU that is more powerful than a hussar…
I get that, but the only reason it was functional on release was the super op eco. I don’t see many Swedish Jaegers now, at least aside from a few power spikes. Unlike Dutch you can’t go full coin to pump them out so it just doesn’t work well since torps are slower than before (which is good).
The design of the civ seems to push hard for producing units that cost more than just coin, and I’d even say, more food than coin. I think the civ could really use some redesigning. A number of things just don’t work well together, and a solid low range tanky skirm would help bring a few different things together imo.
Hakkas are actually decent, and paired with a good skirm could likely work well. Additionally, pikes would become important early to protect Caroskirms and could see use outside of the stupid late game shenanigans.
The civ is just really awkward at the moment and the holes in it’s roster are a big problem. Personally, I wouldn’t even mind the civ moving towards a major focus on quality with a slower eco than a lot of civs have.
Torps could be slowed and their upgrades replaced with things to make them more sustainable (ie better yields and less improvement to gather rates) and instead more vill shipments could be added. Combine that with unusually tanky units and replace their hero bonus with a slow regen aura and things could get interesting really fast. Most units could be 2 pop and a smaller vill pop supplemented by some age 4/5 torp upgrade (probably expensive) that allows them to adequately fill in for 25 vills ad-infinitum and you’ve got a well-functioning small army civ based more on techs and tactics than what you have now. Currently Sweden spams Swedes like they’re canon fodder while hardly using mercs.
It’s funny how all the other musketeers can stand up to the dragoons and Caroline can’t stand up to the dragoons. Just now in a game of matchmaking, my Caroline was actually chased by Ruyter
What’s worse is that I have 17 Jägers.
ruyters are overly cost effective against musketeers, they’re kind of obnoxious
They cost barely more for around the same ranged dps while shooting faster so less overkill, how is that underperforming vs goons?
also after their age3 ups they just beat out musks and irish brigs are a thing in age2