Minus actual gameplay; the descriptions of the 3 of 4 variants have unveiled that ONLY jeanne of arc is the singular yet mentioned faction that has mechanic that clearly differentiate it from the original french playstyle and core build. However Ayyubid and now Zhu Xi’s Legacy APPEAR to be legit improved version of Abbasids and China. My fear has been and still continues to be if Ayyubids and Zhu Xi’s Legacy better perform and resonates with the community, they each will displace the original (or vice-versa if the originals best the variants).
I said this because the APPARENT playstyles of these 2 variants overlaps the originals. And often, as a mere function of hone design; the latter iterations eventually overcome the former.
Zhu Xi’s Legacy seems really good and very interesting… and I don’t understand what’s the logic behind it, what really differentiates the variant from the original. It just seems an alternate version and it might also be better. The Chinese lost some identity patch after patch, Zhu Xi’s Legacy instead is quite unique. Maybe it loses the focus on gunpowder.
Bro difference is there is no such thing Zhu Xi’s legacy civ in real life it feels made up and “what if” fantasy civ.The only thing they did better with this one is they get new landmarks.
The Abbassids have wings instead of landmarks. It’s not a surprise that the Ayubbids have them too. The effect changed a lot though. It makes sense, I don’t think it’s laziness.
I wouldn’t really call them an improvement. From what we have heard Ayyubids is a much different civ. One is an aggressive cavalry civ and the other is an infantry civ with probably the best multi-TC boom build still (assuming Ayyubids don’t get fresh foodstuffs, and even if they do they won’t have cheap TCs).
They aren’t as unique as a new civ, but they are still more different/unique than AOE2 or AOE3 civs.
They could have change the wings or house of wisdom they are lazzy.When i see the chinese variant (i dont even want to say the name of the civ) i thought they did good job.I would except more for ayyubids maybe for french variant too we dont know its landmarks.
It’s not fair to say the Devs are lazy. It’s disrespectful to the dignity of their work. They have constraints, they make choices and design content as they see fit, with limited resources and pressure from the higher floors. They love their product, they stated it plenty of times. You don’t get to call them lazy just because things are not original enough for your liking.
The only thing that is the same about the house of wisdom is the fire armor aura and the name. All of the affects and bonuses are completely different.
I even find new units lazy they look like they took for example body armor from some unit and helmet from some other units.I think they realized if they only bring 2 civs to table it wont be enough and panicked so they made variant civs with haste because its far more easy to do.
It also needed to look different like chinese landmarks
It’s a variant civ not a brand new civ. The whole point of doing it is to reuse certain things. I understand if you would rather only gettng 2-3 new civs instead of 6 new or partially new civs in a patch, but that’s your opinion. I am personally much happier that we get 6 civs that play very uniquely even if they reuse some mechanics or assets.
You’re certain about things you cannot know, that says something. Also, you see that the Devs reused some assets and jump to the conclusion that they’re lazy, that’s malicious, or negative, if you prefer.
You could have said “a new unit, cool”. Instead, you said “reused assets, the Devs are lazy”.
There are different ways to see a subject but not all equally good. Some are not good at all.
Well, Zhu Xi Legacy was very nice, and the green one now I understand why they wanted to call it Jade Empire.
Anyway, as far as the civ variants seeming better than the parent civ, well I must say that “I was already afraid of it”. In fact, a few hours ago I commented on the following in another thread:
Well, with the revelation of the Jade Empire, it seems that they will also have Palace Guard. And as one of the content designers commented, Jade Empire could also produce the ZhugeNu, firelancer and probably the Grenadier as well.
Making a list, let’s see how it looks:
HRE
Prelate, Landsknecht, → 2
Order of the Dragon
Prelate (captures), MenAtArm variant, Spearman Variant, Horseman Variant, Knight Variant, Landskecht Variant, others → more than 6
Palace Guard, Officer, Nest of Bees, Fire Lancer, ZhugeNu, Grenadier. → 6
Zhu Xi Legacy
Imperial Guard, Jin Raider, Shaolin Monk, Early Palace Guard (capture), Official, Zhugenu, FireLancer?, Grenadier?, others → 9 at least
Abbasid
Camel Raider, Camel Archer, Ghulam → 3
Ghulam (again), Dessert Raider, Camel Lancer, Manyuq, Tower of the Sultan, Dervishes, Atabeg Advisors, others? → 7 at least
DISCUSSION:
As we can see, the number of unique units of the parent CIV pales in comparison to the variant CIV. Unless they give some extra unique units to the parent CIV that distinguishes it from the variant, what you say could happen, and they are overshadowed by its variants
With Joan D’Arc there is not much problem because people will miss the French Landmarks, but with the rest there is.
It is worth mentioning that there are many options for extra unique units for the Chinese or the HRE during the Middle Ages.
In the case of the Chinese there are:
Lang Xian Pikeman, Flamethrower, Changdao Swordsmen, Flying Crow
In the case of the Abbasids there are:
Mamluk (may it be real someday), naffatum (shoot naffta)
In the case of the HRE there is:
Ministerialis, Prince Bishop, Hussite War Wagon (except if Hussite variant civ is created), Schwarze Reiter, Landsknecht pikemen and Landsknecht harquebusiers.
However, for the HRE, we better wait for the announcement of its next civ variant to see possibilities.
Let’s wait and see, people are just making assumption based on unique units, which is what the variants are centered around. But the original civs have plenty of advantages that are just more “Vanilla” and simpler to play with.
These are also speculations, but i’m pretty sure they know what they are doing, for example, I’m expecting that:
Jean D’arc civ won’t have the french faster villager production bonus, which is huge. Also won’t have the cheaper eco-tech and drop-off building.
Ayyubid won’t have freshfoodstuff (cheap villagers), and we already know they don’t have all the cool tech in the House of Wisdom, the phalanx and composite bow comes to mind, as well as preservation of knowledge and the fertile crescent. They don’t seem to have access to Camel Archer either.
Zhu xi legacy won’t have the faster villager production from Song Dynasty, it won’t have barbican, it won’t have the overpowered Gatehouse wall landmark. I’m expecting it won’t have all the siege upgrades (Reload Drils, Reusable barrels) and won’t have the clocktower, so Zhu-xi siege engines will be way less strong and way less the focus of the variants, which will be centered more around melee and cavalry.
Beasty in his Video said he tried the variant civ and he saw a lot of advantage but also a lot of disavantage playing the new civs. So i think there will still be a place for original civs, and I think it’s ok that the originals are more “Vanilla” as some players prefer simplicity. You can’t just count this based on the number of unique units.
This pretty much.
Idk what Jeanne will give up that French have, but Ayyubids give up a lot of techs important to Abbasid gameplay. Like not having all the house of wisdom techs just makes the strategies Abbasids do not viable as Ayyubids.
Similar with Zhu Xi. Song dyansty, barbican and clocktower are really important things to the civ. Not having those landmarks/bonuses means the civ will play much different. Heck without barbican, feudal age play itself will be drastically different since you don’t have a defensive landmark in feudal.
My concern isnt merely overlap units? Everyone has spears and archers (except mali with donso and English with longbows). So sharing units in itself isnt scary.
But zhu xi legacy for example gets a starting official (something the chinese players have been begging for for years) and cheaper landmarks (another thing we have been begging for years). So if they remove song dynasty villagers but maintain 2 landmark per age dynasty mechanics? How is that not essentially core china with nuisance start and perk adjustment?
I’m of the opinion for Ayyubid and zhu xi legacy they could have expanded the original civs directly allowing these landmarks and what not to dictate the unique units and associated playstyle.
Example china always starts with an Imperial Offical (should have always been a thing) but then you have the option to pick from 4 feudal landmarks. But the moment you complete one landmark it locks you into the associated playstyle and what other landmarks can be available.