This is fine, I was just wondering if there exists an alternative…
Yeah, but why searching for an alternative when it may be enough to just give them a tech, or tweak a bit some already existing bonuses.
Let’s keep the alternatives for potential new civs, since it’s once again possible that may we get those in the future.
i actually really like this idea, especially if it is all infantry, it is very useful for drush/m@a and will even help with condos (due to their high speed and ability for flanking/raiding). it also helps with pitched battles because the unit auto pathing is based on it’s own LOS, so if it personally cannot see an enemy it is more prone to eff up or go for buildings.
especially if we couple it to giving italians SE
so their early game is improved slightly with a very unique bonus(situationally/skill dependent etc) and their late game is improved slightly (but more to bring them in line thematically)
especially since it seems like m@a / drushing is becoming even more meta than scrushing (since it hits sooner and to prevent walling) maybe to keep it toned down, the LOS only comes in in feudal, like all the other civ bonuses for militia line
originally i was against it, but after using porto and their darn discount a lot more i think italians will be fine, if porto is fine… especially since porto has an even larger eco bonus throughout the game
i think this is also needed
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It could be even +2 onestly, but I think that it’s not about the number, but more about the concept.
If you look at the infantry units that lack any bonus vs eagles, only the condos and the kamayuks lack it, which coincidentally are the only 2 infantry units introduced with the forgotten DLC.
All other infantry units before and after the forgotten DLC have at least +1 bonus damage. Even dismounted konniks have it (unlike the mounted konniks) even though for balance reasons it was set to 0.
yeah definitely needs it then, like even the flemish militia gets it… and understandable dismounted konnik doesnt get it since its still ultimately a cav unit so eagles shouldnt be maliced vs them in any form, and kamayuks are more of a pseudo pike unit so again understandable, but the condo doesnt make sense to not have it
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Actually, the dismounted konnik have it its files, it’s just set to 0, but that prove that it’s something that all infantry units have.
Condos and kamayuks instead both lack it, because it was completely forgotten. Both still win against eagles, but still it’s more about the idea that eagles should be bad against any kind of infantry. In my opinion both condos and kamayuks could have +1.
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yeah i guess kamayuks can also get it, means they kill aztec and incan eagles in 1 less hit, mayan in 2 less
condos with +1 will kill aztec eagles in 1 less hit
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Yeah, you’ll still go for champs or HC against eagles, but if randomly you have some condos they would be more useful, even just as an “emergency” unit for an eagle raid, or for some of your allies in a TG.
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Italians vs etiopians at 02:22:50
I think that this game really show how the lack of SE really hurt italians late game, since their BBC really struggled to compete with etiopians ones. And etiopians also get SE on top of more attack in the splash damage, meaning that even not perfectly accurate shots are more deadly.
Though, this match also showed the usefulness of pavise, since italians arbs mopped the floor with the ethiopians arbs, which I guess it’s how it should be, since one is a free feudal bonus, the other is a UT that you pay for. Viper also had better production, so probably it wasn’t just pavise, but still…
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Even in feudal age the bonus would be ok for m@a after a drush.
Actually, militia with more LOS can pursue villagers better, to the point they get killed by the TC. So giving them more LOS pnly after feudal can be a good thing.
However, there are some bonuses that affect militia before feudal. Portuguese or goths discount and aztecs and goths faster production comes to my mind. Celtic militia steal sheep better!
Still, since the mongol scout have more LOS already in dark age and can be used for drush or laming, a I would give them this bonus in dark age
My feeling is that this would be very minor as bonus compared to other maa opening. I actually think the civ needs something more in the early stages.
Introducing new bonuses can be actually meaningful as devs have done for several civs. If we want to be stucked on the existing things, a good alternative I see is following the path of the last Saracen buff.
So you basically make pavise a civ bonus (replace it with everything you like. Or maybe just +1 PA as civ bonus and +1 MA from a cheaper pavise). This would not exclude the SE ideas ofc.
So let me organize the proposal:
- Pavise UT cost halved;
- Pavise UT now gives to archers and condos +1/0 instead of +1/1 armor
- new civ bonus: archers and condos +0/1 armor
This would not exclude in any way the SE addition (which is needed imo) but could be a solid early game buff (instead of an extra 5% cheaper age up) which does leave the late game untouched
I’m denying that a new bonus would help them, I mean of course it would help them, but is it necessary? Especially with new civs on the horizon?
It’s like buying a new car when you just punctured a tire, let’s first change the tire , and then if the old car still has problems we may buy a new one.
Let’s first hope that they add SE, and then let’s see how they perform. Then we will discuss what other buff may come, we already have a large pool of ideas.
At that point, I wouldn’t see a reason why researching pavise, pavise is more useful for the PA than the MA, I think that I would probably ignore it at this point.
I mean, that thing that bothered me about pavise was basically viets get the same effect though a free bonus, that start in feudal and affect more units. But, if the civ overall becomes more balanced, I can live even with pavise not being perfect.
Of course SE could simply be added at anytime, because that’s necessary, and it’s a nice little buff that would make us happy. And even if it would come alone (either because other buff are delayed or because they’ll never come) I would settle for that.
I mean, their early game would be still weak, but with SE at least their late game would be perfect, so it would be balanced.
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Super minor thing I just noticed, the Elite Genoese Crossbowman technology is actually one of the slower unique unit upgrades at 60 seconds (Chu Ko Nu is 50 seconds for example, which is a fairly comparable upgrade). That time could be cut a bit for example to 50 or 45 seconds if it is desired to make them a bit easier to mass.
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Why? Still it would provide +1MA, which is fine. It should be one more hit from some units. Quite useful for condos anyway.
Ofc it has to be cheaper than now. It would be a tech with smaller priority, but this holds now as well.
I agree on this. Now it is slightly different. Both affect equally the archer-line. Vietnamese bonus acts also on skyrms, while pavise acts also on UUs.
Anticipating half pavise in feudal (the PA part) would really Italians, while also making them more archer-focused considering also the new university bonus.
This is actually something I have never noticed, you are right
After thinking about the recent arena tournament again, I started thinking that italians could become a solid arena civ with some tweaks. Imo:
-Give them siege engineers
-Changes how pavise works to be more consistent: it affects arbalests, hand cannoneers, genoese crossbowmen and skirmishers, but not condos. Increase the cost to 300f 300g.
-Change condos base armor from 0PA to 1PA. Add +2 bonus damage against eagles.
I think with those tweaks the civ would be way more functional.
Because +1MA isn’t that helpful on a unit that should still keep their distances, and for sure it’s not worth a castle, even for condos.
Pavise affecting condos is the only thing that makes Italians condos a bit better than the generic ones, and it was a good change. Now after using archers Italians can switch into condos that have a tech in common, which is super useful, because it means that don’t have to wait for all the armor upgrades.
Pavise is fine, the problem was never the tech itself. The old idea was to give Italians a bonus that would stack with pavise, but not changing the tech.
Now italians had a different buff, and that ship has sailed, but pavise itself is a good UT.
This way you are buffing the unit for all civs, which is what they wanted to avoid when they let pavise affect condos.
Those are good.
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That’s the same armor as champions (but they deal 3 less base damage), so they will still die pretty easily to archers. Pavise affecting condos never made sense in the first place to me…why should it affect archer units and infantry units at the same time?
Sure, but it would be stupid to skip a useful upgrade. I agree it is not a key one, but it is not useless and it would not be for a +1 MA only. Especially considering that it affects GCs and condos which are more prone to melee fighting.
Very desirable
It may definitely affect skyrms. My main concern is that the civ is very bad in feudal age.
Similarly to Saracens that have got part of their UT as civ bonus, pavise could be changed in that way…
We could also do the opposite then: remove the effect of pavise from archers and just leave it for condos. Extra armor on archers becomes now a bonus of the civ starting from feudal. That way italians get an early game buff without changing anything about their late game as far as archers are concerned. The fact the pavise would then only affect condos allows for further fine-tuning of the unit stats for italians, without making it op for other civs.
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