Italians are too OP on closed maps

Italians feel unbeateable in maps like arena (at least in team games).

1 - Genoese Crossbowman are too good against cavalry and by the time you invest into a counter like mangonel or skirmishers, italians can instantly go condo without upgrades and it beats your counters, you can’t really go infantry cause they have another insta awnser that requires almost no upgrades and is also cheaper (hc), not to mention chemistry is cheaper as well (also cheaper bbc)

2 - Also, we can’t forget they have fully upgraded hussar and cavalier… also monks have all the important upgrades… their only weakness is not having siege engineers

I don’t see how a regular civ can beat that bs in early imp without having specific bonuses against those units. Also archers that beat cavalry like that feels too limiting, its not fun being forced into a single unit that not all civs have like idk Shrivamsha Rider, malian champion, cataphracts, plumed archer.

I want to be clear that my problem with the civ is that italians have instant counter to anything you may invest into leading into a quick loss rather than the combo being imposible too beat (although genoese feel really limiting)

So anyway, lets say you’re teutons in arena and italians advanced to imp before you (cause cheaper advance) how do you guys counter genoese crossbows when you know he’ll have bbc ealier than you and insta no upgrade required condos if you decide to go for skirms…

If you anticipate the game playing out like that, and then going badly for you, you probably want to take steps to prevent that. For example, Teutons have an excellent tower rush, Italians aren’t really that spectacular early game, so it definitely has the potential to kill them if done well. Also, Genbows are expensive and difficult to mass, so you can kill them quickly/before Castles. If you’re already in that situation, maybe Crenellation Castles and Monk Siege to slowly push. You have better Monks with the conversion resistance, Siege Engineers, and Siege Onager as possibilities. If they aren’t on Genbow though, you could probably just go for Paladin and make sure you kill them before they get numbers.

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Still not as op as bohemians

Mangonels arent expensive to invest into, so are scorpions. And skirms require less investment than Gxbows.

Actually,acvording to stats.io, 10 civs have better win rate on 1v1 Arabia: Turcs > Bohemians > Malays > Spanish > Romans > Portuguese > Teutons > Incas > Burgundians > Sicilians > Italians.

I dobt see how it is that much worse than Huskarls, Cataphracts, Composite bowmen.

Then the loss is on you: if you cannot advance earlier despite cheap farms, and rather go to imp instead of investing into army despite having a much worse eco than his (he has castles, gxbows, and still enough resources to transit to condo, as unupgraded condos arent a good counter to mass of castle age skirms), I think you would lose to any other civ with a player making use of his civ bonus.

In arena, monks + mangonels + castles are meta. In castle age, gxbows are weak to mangonels, due to lower range and attack delay.

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Hard to end the game before imperial age if anyone builds a castle so it will inevitable go in a way that you can’t produce mangonels, i guess the best thing you can do is going your own bbc and monks… but oh wait! they have fully upgraded hussar! and they could do the same with bbc and monks with genoese and your cavalry is just wasted… i had a game being byzantine against italian that we were post imp and it was imposible for me to counter bbc genoese and light cavaly because my own light cavalry couldn’t get to their bbc…

So staying in castle age is a losing strategy cause you can’t destroy a castle (which is another thing that i think is wrong with the game, but thats for another time)

Huskarls are melee infantry (which by the way can still be countered by hc), cataphracts are more expensive than paladins to tech into and armenians are not as versatile as italians

I said on closed maps

I guess its the only thing you can do before going to that scenerio… it still bothers me a lot getting forced to do something i don’t like to do just to not get screwed over…i don’t like getting italian opponents

I believed that it was typo. I suppose those civs are actually better than Italians in Arena.

That is the end game combo. If you let them get there, your opponent actually deserve to win as this combo is hard to achieve.

I am not so sure but mass cataphract worth a try?

Italians are currently #12 (1v1) and #11 (TG) on Arena. Doesn’t seen too OP to me considering classic closed civs such are Turks and Spanish are still ahead

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I wasnt saying you wont go imperial, I was talking about you getting beaten by an imperial age army with unupgraded castle age army, while playing as Teutons which should have the better economy.

With cant you go mangonels (or Onagers) anymore in imperial age ?

It is almost as if you should add pikes (or halberdiers) to your composition and not go full bbc/monks…

As Byzantines you can spam skirms and halberdiers. A ball of skirms can dive under his castle to kill the bbcs. Only at much higher level this is more complex.

The strategy is not go stay in castle forever, it is to delay imperial age until you have a good economy.

The 2 main strategies in Arena are (1) Fast imperial and (2) Fast castle into boom and delayed imperial (5 to 10 minutes later).
These strategies can be mixed delayed with a fight for relics.

Sorry, I meant on Arena, as you were talking about Teutons vs Italians on Arena.

I am not saying Italians are a bad civ, and I agree that Geonese + BBC + Condos are in general hard to counter. But it is nowhere as hard as you make it out to be, there are 10 better civs on closed maps (over 20% of the civs), and there are counters.

Italians miss Heresy, Siege onagers and Siege engineers for a reason.

But Italians have below average play rate on closed map, and are far from being the mist oppressive civ on closed maps. So I would nerf at the very least 5 other civs (for closed maps) before nerfing Italians. And Teutons would come before as well.

i guess only italians have a end game combo thats worth a win then…

not enough gold and catas are not the best against regular archers because of their armor

Main italian army composition being bbc

Look… you may be right… but thats not my experience and what are the chances that the last 20 games i remember going against italians, every time my opponent was just better than me and not the civ being op… maybe the civ counters my playstyle? i don’t know what to tell you… most of the time people castle drop and i’ve become quite skilled defeding against it but other times the enemy pocket helps as well and you have a real disadvantage when the enemy has archers that decimate cavalry… being that most of the time the pockets are cavalry players

Civs like Magyars, mongols, teutons, ethiopians, portuguese,Saracens also have deadly endgame composition…

Genoese xbow+BBC is also very gold-hefty. Cataphract is not the best against archer but much better against genoese xbow compared to any other cavalry unit. Cataphract is not too weak against archer and kill opponent siege with presence of enemy’s pikes. Maybe you can play Italians next time in Arena and you can see how your opponent exploit Italian weakness.

Closed maps != michi != full tech maps.

You should learn some fast-imp strategies, like Cuman 2TC into imp, Malay fast imp, Turk castle drop into imp etc. that will counter your opponent before they get all the techs.

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Thats why it is sometimes better to try to take out certains civs before they reach a certain time or age.
Like preventing their feudal buildings from going up. Or never let that monastry or castle go up.
Another idea is to split the attention, to micro the pavise crossbowmen away. And raid with lightcav. Today and the past days we’ve seen in Nac5 that lightcav are always are an amazing answer to spontaneously raid at different locations.
And if the skirmishers dont do it, maybe mix in crossbowmen yourself to outrange them. And then you bring in the cavalry. You can make it as layered as you want.
Or tower their gold in the feudal age. Or wall it up. Or wall their base out of gold.
I’m sure there are enough creative strategies to come up with. Sure some won’t be fancy. Like Hera murdering sheep right under your TC. From Nac5 what we learned the most is that Towncenters really don’t do much damage and miss shots very easily.

Or go for Huskarls or Ghulams. That would be your best answer. Oldschool man at arms rush into huskarls.

If you talk about italians vs teutons you could turn around your arguments.

Yes hussars counter monk/siege and these crossbows counter cav.

From another perspective, (teuton) helbs counter hussars hard and you can counter these crossbowman with onagers/ur own bbc which have more range.

What am i getting at?

At the end, especially in lower elos(which i suppose you are) the better micro will decide who will win this fight and not the combo itself.

If the teuton player guards his siege well with his helbs you will have problems dealing with the siege with only bowmen.

And as people already mentioned before there are more death combs in this game than that…do you think mangudai+husssar+siege is less scary?

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If we are still on the Teuton example you have +2MA FU Halberdiers and Iron clad also they need a good farming eco and resources to support a Hussar/Cavalier tech switch. They are unlikely to have a good eco or be able to contest Relic with a fast-imp build. Also since you have crenelations they need trebuchets which will force them to either sacrifice their ability to mass Genoese or leave your castle untouched.

Cataphracts might work they don’t receive bd from GC unfortunately they only have 1 pierce
Monks are also good against BBC they are difficult to snipe with hussar snipe if next to a castle

Right, so you are afraid of the Italians countering your investment?

Have you considered not investing? Go Eskirm and play reactive. Eskirm forces your opponent to invest into a counter to skirm to keep the genoese alive, if it’s Condo they’re on a gold clock, if it’s Hussar you go pike and then they again need to answer your options, or again be on a gold clock by risking the genoese to handle the pikes.

The fact that they do not have Siege Engineers means they will have a hard time forcing the issue or making you take a bad engagement to defend your positions. Basically any civ that plays on closed maps will have better siege than the Italians. They need to take advantage of their uptime advantage to win - it is not incumbent on you to beat them.

Easy solution, play italian yourself, and see how opponent beat you :sweat_smile:

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