Hello there! Since SpiritOfTheLaw made a video about the worst upgrade for the elite unique unit (what a surprise) why not take the opportunity to think about how to make the Italians a bit more unique too.
Again, these are not ready and finished modifications. They are more a start for a discussion on the subject. Be nice.
Unique technologies: Silk Road → Silk Roads
Trade unit cost halved → Trade unit cost -33%
[NEW] All food gathering is 10% faster
The idea is to make this technology useful also in 1v1. I know the effect chosen is not the most original, but there is already Grand Tunk Road.
Civilization bonuses
The Elite Skirmisher upgrade its free. [NEW]
Archery Range
Remove Thumb Ring.
Barracks
No changes but I want to point out that Condottieri are not so effective against good HCs or are absolutely useless against Janissaries. So some work needs to be done, like -2 damage taken from GP unit.
Stable
Remove Hussar.
University
Give them Siege Engineers.
(Elite) Genoese Crossbowman
Cost:
Wood 45 → 45
Gold 40 → 45
Pierce Attack
6(6) → 6(7)
Range
4(4) → 4(5)
Reload time
2(2) → 1.83(1.69)
(Elite) Attack bonus:
+4(+6) vs Camels and Ships–> +3(+5) vs Camels and Ships
+5(+7) vs Cavalry and Elephants → +4(+6) vs Cavalry and Elephants
+0(+0) vs Spearman–> +2(+2) vs Spearman [NEW]
Do you think Sicilians or Romans made Italians more unique?
I know you support Venice but this is a weird place to bring it up. If anything I think it would make Italy feel less unique as most Venice civ designs I have seen are very similar to Italy.
Forgive me, but it makes no sense to include the Venetians, unless for political reasons you are a League voter who spends your days shouting Padania libera with Bossi’s holy card in your wallet.
Italians already represent northern Italy very well, and besides if you add the Venetians what do you do with that civility? Rename them to Genovesi or Bergamaschi or Ferraresi? Seriously?
They do have reduction from HC practically. HC do +10 vs infantry. Condo have +10 infantry armor to negate the bonus damage. Devs then made Condo armor class. Other anti-infantry unit like slingers do +10 vs condottiero.
The Royal Heir change make Shotel take -4 from cavalry. Similarly, Condo can be made to take -5 from gunpowder while Samurai can take -4 from ranged and melee UU.
I think this would actually make them less unique, since it makes them more like Portuguese. I think Italians’ main problem is that they’re like a blander version of Portuguese. Some of your other changes would move them a bit further from Portuguese, but I’m not keen on removing thumb ring from an archer civ.
Good observation – yes, only Italians, Magyars and Saracens, I think.
Obviously you weren’t asking me, but I think adding a new civ never makes an existing civ more unique – although it can make an existing civ less unique if the two civs are similar. Thus Italians became less unique when Portuguese were added, and they would become less unique again if Venetians were added. (Irrelevant side note: I’m usually good at spelling, but it took me three goes to spell Venetians. Why isn’t it spelt Venicians!?)
Doesnt make much sense as an imp UT. Faster food gathering is usually of great value before you are in imp with all important techs done. While imperial age UT is researched after bracer/plate barding, chemistry, conscription etc. Trying to improve food gathering rate by paying gold for it, is of very little value past 50 mins.
This is collectively a nerf. Civ’s bonus is advancing faster to next age which is a timing advantage bonus that fits archer play. Removing thumb ring nerfs early imp arbalest+handcanon play a lot. It also nerfs genoese xbows a lot and those units are necessary to counter cavalry in imperial age.
This could be a good change. Like -12 damage from gunpowder units.
Don’t agree with these changes. You’re trying to make them a more generically powerful unit but I think they should remain a specialist unit against camels, cavalry and ca while Italians can choose to go for Arbalesters against infantry.
True, but you have to think about giving them something. It could also be the +1 missing range to BBC without giving them Siege Engineer.
I am continuing to experiment with values. Probably even -5 is right.
I had calculated half free thumbring for the Genovese at the Castle Age, and a completely free ring for the Elite’s version.
It is completely inconsistent with the rest of the game.
Longbowmen are better than Arbalest. They have +1 attack, +1 range, +0/1 armour. For balance they are slightly less accurate, but same damage against Spearmen.
Rattan Archer are better than Arbalest. They have +1 attack, same range, +5HP (vs regolar Arbalest) , +0/6 armour, faster moving, therefore slightly higher deelay. But of course same damage against Spearmen.
Mangudai are better than Cavalry Archer. They have +1 attack, same range and amour, less attack delay which is remarkable, +5 vs siege weapons. The bonus attack against Spearmen is reduced from +2 of CA to +1 to maintain the same result.
Plumed Archers are better than Arbalesters. You can tell me they have 1 less attack, true, but they attack 5% faster, same range, +0/2 armour, +25HP, +0.24 movement speed, and of course an overall bonus attack of +4 vs sperman. For those who don’t know Arbalesters have +3 vs sperman.
I think the point is clear without me continuing any further.
This combined with the fact that Condottieri have no bonus attack against eagles (why? Also as I said, I’ll make a thread about sooner or later) makes the whole composition of the Italians so varied and unnecessarily more difficult to manage.
They already take 10 less damage from handcanoneers. Instead of having it as 10 infantry class armor, they could make it -10 damage from gunpowder (similar concept to shotels against cavalry)
Mangudai are broken and we can discuss separately more on that. But other foot archers are meant to be general archers being good vs infantry and vulnerable vs cavalry. Like you cant take out elephants, tarkans, paladin, savar quickly with those units. However Genoese crossbowman melts such units. That’s their functionality. Even though stronger than generic variants are great, most of the popular unique units are the ones that counter the units that are supposed to be stronger against them. Genoese is one of such units and I wouldn’t change that.
This comes a cost of being more vulnerable to arbalest, skirm and siege. As long as GC remain weak vs these units, the buff should be fine (a bit being better vs villagers and infantry.)
