pavise isnt weak but significant in archer war. It simply comes too late due to its cost. May consider to move this UT as a civ bonus to get an early buff. UT may be changed to buff Condos in late game with relatively high cost. If silk road is changed to team bonus, then imp UT can be changed to allow ally to train condo in barracks
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oh nonono iām comparing it to ALL archery civ as listed in the description of the civ. of all the civs listed as āarchery civā italians have the weakest archers and no bonus for them at all until pavise, which is arguably the weakest of all and its also payd
civs like Japanese or Koreans have better archer play and are not even archery civ
simply because advancing the feudal with 75 more food is not a good eco bonus. their eco bonus is both weaker and less impactful than ethiopians one for example. you basically saves less than a minute in worktime each age, but then you are still far behind what other civs gets like malay faster advancement, which is WAY better. Their eco bonus is that and itās ok. itās not good, but itās ok and unique so iām happy with it, but they definitely need a feudal help for their archers and an identity otherwise their archer play is just worse and less unique than japanese, to name one
also, there are many civs that can do 19 pop way better than italians or as better as them, while having a better feudal aggression in addition or an actual military bonus
and again, this has very little to do with silk road being so bad and needing a change, and pavise could use a tweak as well (add skirmisher to the bonus?)
yeah except those civs are all way stronger than italians on arabia or anithing land based, and those civs are picked wuite often in tournamets as well. when was the last time you saw italians picked on arabia or any land based map in a tournaments?
they literally donāt but whatever helps you drive your narrative of āItalians are weakā. Italians is far stronger than Koreans and if you include something like Malay which is de facto an Archer civ also, Italians are stronger than them too. Here you need to pick what you consider ābetterā, if you look only at archer-line, Italians is even better than say Chinese, if you look at overall economy, sure, Chinese are better than Italians but then there is no way you consider Koreans better than Italians. If your argument is that Italians are worse than Chinese because of eco, but worse than Koreans because Koreans get free armor, thatās called cherry picking and bias, and then we can argue anything if we use bias, I could say that for me personally, Shotel Warrior is the best unit in the game so Ethiopians are #1.
No pros agree with you, Viper classified them as āunderratedā in his last tier list, Hera put them mid-tier also. Versatility is its own beauty.
I think you should play some Dravidians or something like Bohemians, you clearly think eco bonus is everything and tech tree is nothing, play these civs on Arabia and you will see that you are wrong.
which is why I put them mid tier, your point? There are civs that are also far worse at doing 19 pop than Italians.
this is like your opinion.
this is just selective reading/watching, something like Japanese or Huns hasnāt been picked in forever and Saracens is also extremely rare. Also, Italians are either banned or saved for water maps, no wonder you donāt see them on Arabia 
In which way? Hera gives higher rating to Chinese archer indeed.
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FU Italian Arbalest > FU Chinese Arbalest.
FU isnt the biggest factor for archer play
You dont factor in chu ko nu?
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Except they are, with wood bonus for lapaneae and complete tech and FU cavalry archers, and for koreans you have wood discount and free armor. Both are literally way better than what Italians have, which is nothing for their Archer.
Chinese have no direct bonus but have discount for each tech which is better than what Italians have since It also apply to archer tech
Anyway, none said Italians are weak. They are weaker on land and in feudal specifically and most of all they lack anithing unique for their archers, which is just a straight up fact
Like no?itās data. There is solid data showibt Italians weakness on anithing that isnāt Hybrid and specifically in feudal. Like how can anyone in his right mind say Italians are even close to huns on something like Arabia is a mistery.
Again, they are not trash, but they lack anithing unique for their Archer play, and infact, in all of those pro ranks you mentioned like viper or Heraās, they are the worst classified among the archery civ, which are overall classified as A+ tier, cause, again, the fact that some non Archer civs have better archers than them is a simple fact
Cheaper ballistics and chemistry, +1/1 extra armor
Doesnt seem like nothing to me.
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Nor does it factor in discount on all Archer techs, which is hugeā¦
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+1 armor is almost insignificant and way worse than what vietnamese get for free, and on broader units and earlier. Also It requires a Castle and a UT, so it comes pretty late and, again, is arguably the weakest possibile buff for archers
Cheaper ballistic is nowhere near faster firing or more range or even more HP, since getting ballistic is still not that cheap since you have to get university First which means no wood for extra TC.
And chinese also get cheaper ballistic on top of cheaper other things for archers
Italians imho only need a Little help for archer in feudal to make them feel more unique and Archer focused. Even something small like +1 MA for archery range units would already be decent enough
One could also Nerf their water a bit of needed
OH and again this has nothing to do with silk Road being trash and needing a change which is the point of the thread
He doesnt compare the bonus to other civs. I agree early Italian archer is generic. But the way you describe is not accurate. At least cheaper ballistics and chemistry can prove itself handy. +1/+1 armor isnt weak but significant in archer war.
Maybe, but it definitely puts them ahead of civs that have just generic archers, whether you like it or not.
But still impactful, especially in archer wars where they only take 5 damage instead of 6 from other arbs, lasting an additional hit.
Saving resources is always a bonus no matter what. It means you can invest more into army, grab it faster then your opponent, or even age up faster allowing you to take a tech advantage.
Doesnt matter. His claim was they get nothing for their archers. Which is false.
I never sayd they get nothing. I sayd they only get pavise which is weakest bonus among all and its behind paywall, making this arguably the weakest Archer bonus among archery civ.
I merely sayd their Archer play feels generic and boring since their Archer have nothing unique going for them until late Castle age, focusing the problem in feudal age and identity.
Really? Seems that way to me.
Someones always going to get screwed on bonuses if you compare them to others.
Persians get +2 attack against archers for free.
Cumans get +5% speed. For free. And donāt have to pay for husbandry.
Franks get free bloodlines.
Berbers get a discount for free.
Meanwhile malians, poles, and bulgarians have to pay a 1 time tech for their bonuses.
Lithuanians literally have to do stuff to get their bonus and it can be lost.
The upside of Italians is that their bonuses allow them to get up faster and take tech advantages, on top of having better fully upgraded archers then a lot of civs do.
Do they need a slight land buff? Sure. But lets not pretend they are terrible and have nothing going for them.
Yeah and both of those bonuses since are payd are way stronger than any of those you mentioned. Thatās the difference. You are paying to get LESS than what others get for free, for more units, and One Age earlier. Thatāsā¦not good deal
This would not be a problem if Italians had other things making their archers interesting, but pavise is their bonus, and its bad. If It was for free and from feudal, with a new UT, then it would be already a different story
Infact i agree they need a small buff, i never sayd they are trash. I merely sayd they have no identity and are the weakest among archery civs in regard to Archer play, but most of all, they lack an identity for their archer in their bonuses, which is strange for a civ labeled as āArcher civā
So yeah, a small buff to make their Archer feel unique in feudal would go a long way
Not necessarily. Depends what im fighting.
For free in feudal it would be absolutely busted.
Other archers would do 3 to 4 damage a shot to them depending on getting archer armor. While doing 4 to 5 back guaranteed.
6 to 8 shots to kill their opponent, while 8 to 10 to die. Significant advantage.
Someone is always going to be the weakest at something. You buff italians to not weakest anc guess what
Someone else is now weakest.
Point was though, you originally claimed they had nothing going for their archers but thats just not true.
Yeah. They have to pay for pavise, but they still get university discounts and cheaper aging up. Both of those give them windows where they can take tech advantages.
Not everyoje needs to be unique in every situation.
What? Would be worse than vietnamese bonus HP you know? Since It affects only archers while viet affect also skirms and later CAā¦so would not be busted at all, would be worse than vietnamese still, but at least free.
Yeah, the problem here is that Italians are weaker at Archer play than some non-archer civ. Koreans for example have stronger Archer play with 20% less wood and free armor. So even with a buff, Italians would still probably be weaker at straight archery, but thatās ok since they have better cav than other Archer civs. The problem imho is their archers have no identity and feel totally bland.
So even something small from feudal would be enough to give them an identity for archer and help their Land play and feudal all in one
Not in every situation. Just in what your civ is supposed to be unique. For an Archer civ, is Archer. For a cav civ, is cavalry, and so on. And Italians archers feel not unique at all
Vietnamese archers with 1 armor upgrade take 4 damage a shot and 9 hits to kill.
Italians with rhe armor upgrade take 3 damage a shot and 10 hits to kill. Seems to me i know who is winning the archer war
So they are stronger then vietnamese in feudal age. Period.
While being able to get there faster (cheaper feudal).
So whats unique in feudal about most cav civs cavalry?
And their skirmisher are stronger than Italians, and their CA are stronger than Italians, and in later stages even their regular xbows are stronger than italians. Period.
So your bonus would let you tank 1 more arrow than vietnamese archers while being equal with anithing else but do not affect any other unit, and drops significantly in Castle when it affects 3 unit as opposed to 1 (possibly 2 with geno) and makes them able to tank mangonels, unlike italians.
And viet bonus is not even considered the Better bonus for archers to begin with
So call a bonus like that busted itās a serious overstatement