Italians Unique Units

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

I agree about condos getting +1 against eagle. But also keep in mind that condos aren’t and will never be a replacement for champions. Their role is to work as an anti-gunpowder force. They are used as champion replacements because using them like that just works, not because that’s their role. So buffing them towards that direction doesn’t make sense at all. Also those buffs will without a doubt make them OP for certain civs like malians, japanese, aztecs, burmese, etc. As for why I think they should get +1 against eagles: well, they are used as alternatives to face eagles while champions are being researched during fast transitions. So the +1 bonus can help them be smoother. But only that.

As for GC, they are completely fine. The only thing I would change about them is that I’d give them +1 LoS and make the elite upgrade cheaper. That’s all.

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22

genoxbows are not fine by any means. the elitè upgrade is just a joke. it costs a ton and give you almost nothing in return in comparison. making it cheaper would help, in addition to make it at least 10 second faster to research, but would be a massive missed opportunity to make the unit cooler

and can you explain how condos with +1 armor OR +1 attack would be OP for malians or japs or else? outside gunpowder, even with +1 PA, they would still have clear weaknesses being an infantry, and low damage potential. even hancannons still do good damage to them atm with 0 PA.

for other civs, you are not countering malians champions with ranged, you counter them in melee since they lack blast furnace. in that regard, malians condos do nothing better. they just tank arrows even better, but does not offer a unique twist to what their champiosna lready have. and similar limitations are still there for other civs. i definilty see them as similar to champions, but not alternative, but to have a reason to be trained they should be more cost effective for their cost, and less one-trick-pony. especially since gunpowder is so underused anyway

i do not see a unit that now barely see any play outside from very rare niche plays, suddenly getting OP with just +1 PA or +1 Attack, they would be stronger for sure, but OP is a whole other state cmon

and btw against handcannos skirmishers are just better than condos anyway and for italians you already are teching archers anyway…so their niche is even more niche

and +1 bonus vs eagles is too low when any other infantry UU has +3 in imperial age, often time with a base attack higher than condos

23

First of all, you want to give condos +4 vs eagles, and +1 PA. Or the other option that’s about giving them just +1 attack. So the buffs themselves don’t look like a big deal, right? But we are talking about an imperial unit that is similar to champion without needing any real previous investment and also it’s shared with the team. Others already told you those buffs can be OP for certain civs but let’s see about the civs I mentioned at least. Your buffs + the fact that other civ bonuses can also apply:

Italians: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks faster, has 5/6 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than huskarls and regular eagle warriors (not elite), has anti-gunpowder armor, and 14 attack. Alt: 15 attack.

Malians: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks faster, has 4/8 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than huskars and regular eagle warriors (not elite), has anti-gunpowder armor, and 14 attack. Alt: 15 attack.

Japanese: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks a lot faster, 4/5 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than huskars and regular eagle warriors (not elite), has anti-gunpowder armor, and 14 attack. Alt: 15 attack.

Aztecs: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks faster, 4/5 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than huskars and regular eagle warriors (not elite), has anti-gunpowder armor, and 18 attack. Alt: 19 attack.

Burmese: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks faster, 4/5 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than huskars and regular eagle warriors (not elite), has anti-gunpowder armor, and 17 attack. Alt: 18 attack.

Celts: a champion-like unit that has 80 hp, attacks faster, 4/5 armor, +4 vs eagles, moves faster than elite eagle warriors, has anti-gunpowder armor, and 14 attack. Alt: 15 attack.

Not to mention vikings, teutons and sicilians. So some civs would give you the possibility of fast infantry units that can fully deny the bonus damage from slingers and regular jaguar warriors/cataphracts (not elite), resist arrows, resist HCs, kill gunpowder super fast, shred elite eagle warriors, shred conquistadors, run away from cavalry and raid better than hussars, slow down cavalry thanks to +1 attack plus chieftains or the teuton armor bonus, destroy wood buildings very close to a regular huskarl thanks to faster attack rate, +1 attack plus the goth bonus, etc.

As for your buff to GCs, LoS is better for foot archers than meele armor. You can use that for both attack and defense. Glad you agree about reducing the elite tech cost though.

Because… that’s the point? The condo unit exists to counter gunpowder. And gunpowder is niche anyway, with few exceptions. Civs without champions use condos as an alternative because of their similar stats. Outside of that, they are mostly used while players are transitioning to champions as to not lose momentum. I see no reason to buff them and give them another role when italians already have champions and cavaliers.
If people want to buff them just for the sake of it, then at least change the team bonus to something else like trade carts cost A% cheaper and buff condos in a different and bolder way through the imperial UT.

Btw something that’s been on my mind is that increasing or reducing their extra infantry armor could be a way to balance them like you want. That’d be a cool option to analyze.

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24

Actually, condottiero has its own armor class. Other anti-infantry unit has +10 vs Condottiero.

If the buff is solely to Italians (exclude PA), it should be fine. To prevent allies from abusing Condos, the cost may be adjusted to 60f/40g but Italians has 20% discount on condo along with gunpowder units.

25

It has both condottiero armor and infantry armor (resist +10).

26

What I mean is that Condos only negate the bonus atk from HC, but it takes the same amount of dmg from other anti-infantry unit.

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27

GC is good in team games but slow to mass in 1v1. Being a Castle unit and long Training Time hinder them to replace halbs. Elite upgrade is lame and expensive. It is absurd chu ko nu and plumed cost less to upgrade.

28

Ah ok, that’s what you mean. I can see how my post was confusing.
I’m going to edit it just in case.

29

all the units you described are a bit-tankyer variant of the champion with way, way less offensive power, and higher cost. so let’s not forget about that.

malians condos would not have 14 attack, but just 12, since they lack blast furnace. while malians champions would have 10 less HP but 15 attack, way higher bonus against eagles and buildings, and cheaper cost, especially cheaper gold cost.

the same applyes to every other statements of civ you made. overall, you trade offensive for defensive while also paying more, which seems the design of the unit to me (tanky variant of a champion with more HP and resistances, but less attack) can’t really see how is OP. oh and the faster attack is really negligible. it’s 1.9 against 2.0

you can make 13 champions for the price of 10 condos, while saving lots of gold in the process. so there are definilty situations where condos are not as good as champions, even with just a +1PA buff.

but anyway, if 1PA is OP (again, can’t see how a simple change like that make a unit from weak to OP but ok) then the +1 attack would suffice. but at the very least a +2 to eagles is needed, just because every other UU infantry has it. +4 may have been to much but that was to balance their lower attack of 10, but +2/3 would be ok i guess

or like you sayd, if they truly resisted anti-infantry damage, not only from hand-cannons, that would be unique and cool and would work as well

(just to be clear, i have no salt or intention to disregard your opinion whatsoever, did not mean to sound rude or anithing like that with this discussion!)

30

yeah my point is related to the elitè upgrade mostly

the best thing to do for me would be keep the theme of the unit upping the MA similar to Rattan PA, so give elitè a +2 MA and call it a day, while making the upgrade a bit faster to research (at lest 50 seconds total), or simply make it way cheaper and faster to make it more cost - efficient

or a blend of the two and give them +1MA, slight cheaper cost and faster research

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31

Imo the complaints about the elite upgrade are a bit exaggerated. It’s not an insane boost of stats, yes, but you get 5 more hp, +2 dmg against the units you wanna use them either way (which is great) and - 4s training time, making them created faster than most archer UU. So in imp it’s actually fairly easy to mass them. Also in imp it’s way easier to get additional units that are good vs genoeses counters so altogether the unit performs way better at this point than in castle age.

32

yeah but look at any other UU archer upgrade and see the difference. the scaling bonus damage is a given against cavalry. it’s something that si bound to happen to make the unit stay relevant as a counter.

plumed upgrade cost about the same total but 0 gold, is researched 15 second faster, adds 15 HP, scaling bonus damage against infantry, 1 range, less cost (because of IMP discount), 1 more PA, 10% accuracy. it’s not even close.

Rattan is only a bit more expensive, faster to research, adds 1 range, 1 damage, 5 HP, 10% accuracy, and 2 pierce armor. again, not even close.

the closest is chu-ko-nu, which adds 5 HP and more arrows, trains 10 seconds faster, and is cheaper, but increse the damage output a lot especially against rams and siege with extra arrows

as for a buff, GenoCross already has better LOS than others UU archer. but that’s really not helping making them less worse in imperial age. they need more net value for that cost of upgrade. either make them a bit tankier with +2 MA (which it’s absolutely better than +2 LOS for a unit with 0.96 speed…) or just make the upgrade way cheaper (like 750/750 or 800/700) and faster to research (45 seconds)

33

For me Condos fit really well in the concept of this civ.
You have cheaper age up cost, so if condos have a role in the game you are playing, they can be a deadly weapon when you hit Imperial age.
They even share every upgrade with champions and some with hussars, so you can have a smooth transition, if needed.
Not to mention that italian condos are pretty strong with Pavise, they are fast, anti-gunpowder (often useless, but better to have it than not) and in group they win easily against generic champions: not every game goes in a state where being cost-effective matters, so winning the first battles could be potentially decisive for the game.

The only change i approve is a bonus vs Eagles, since they are one the only two infantry without it.

34

Condos takes full bonus damage from slinghers, cataprhacts and jaguars, only gunpowder units bonus are negated.

They have the same PA of champions, they aren’t for sure neither eagle nor huskarls.

FU post pavise condos can beat el dorado eagles but barely, literally by 1 hit, and that mostly because the condo attack 0.1 faster, so saying that they shred eagles is really an exaggeration.

No and no. Even knight are faster than condos and hussars are faster, have more PA, and are cheaper, so they’ll always be better at raiding.

These rules of thumb are for the condos of all civs.

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35

i would add that they do not have the same PA as champions, until you research pavise. you need to spend resources and wait for the research to even have the same PA atm, and pavise is limited to italians, so base condos do not have same PA as champions

36

Condos are significantly faster than most other infantry, that’s what makes them kinda good.
As gunpowder plays only a minor role, especially against archer civs like italians that bonus is somewhat unnecessary for the unit.

But yeah it’s quite situational to use condos. You must know when and why. I basically never play them as I don’t have that much experience with them to know when and how to use them efficiently.
But pros use them quite frequently. Mostly in the same way as woads.

37

Everyone speaks of how rarely condos get to kill HC but their bonus let them be a nasty emergency unit against BBC. And you can’t just put a bunch of halbs in front like you can against hussar.

38

well woads are faster and stronger in almost any possible way. also cheaper on the gold part… i barely see any pro use condos really

39

I’m talking about specialized civ condos + his buffs. Not just the “base” generic condo for all civs.
Anyway, the point is that condos are meant to be anti-gunpowder. They do that just fine; thus should remain the same. Trying to turn them into champions with 1.32 speed and better at raiding doesn’t make sense when italians have champions and cavaliers.

40

Yeah but as I said, for most civs it doesn’t make much of a difference.

Celts condos will be as fast as woad raiders, japanese, burmese and aztecs condos will still be worse than their champ counterparts to kill eagles, vikings condos will be more or less on the same pace of italians condos, huskarls and eagles will still have more PA and bonus damage vs buildings, and so on…

For all italian allies, the only advantage of a buffed condo would still be that they don’t have to go through the militia line upgrades, unless the buff isn’t crazy like +10 attack.

That doesn’t mean at all that I agree with all bonuses suggested here, but still that was really exaggerated.

And for sure they’ll never substitute knights or hussars…