Italy General Discussion

I don’t think the problem in and of itself is micromanagement, to be honest, that is what I like about the civ. It is very demanding to play and horrible for noobs, but fun for players with high apm. The problem is that the payoff for high level apm is not actually good right now because the civ is just underpowered…

They need to reward you for playing Italy well more than they actually do. Buffing lombards slightly and buffing the shipment time of papal units is the easiest way to do this.

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Completely the opposite of my case, I hate having to micro-manage excessively, I prefer to be able to focus on an intense rush or an economic boom and not have to be distracted because the Lombards need me to attend to them every minute.

In my opinion the game would have more people playing if micro-management was an extra that increases the performance of civilizations and not a requirement to “use them well”.

:+1:

:+1: We think the same but we differ in the method to use.

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I really don’t think you should keep improving the arrival of the cathedral shipments, as that mechanic would become op easily. I think it could be easier to simply add a letter like Mariachi de Mexico where when you send it the papal shipments take less time but only for 1min.

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What are you talking about? shipments never improved, just got nerfs.

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I’m referring to the way the shipments are currently are fine, they should not make them arrive faster in a permanent way, excluding the letter of fourth.

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There is a card that increases the speed of papal shipments permanently, it is called Papal Arsenal.

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What I propose is to remove that effect from the card and make the basilicas reduce the time of papal shipments by 10%, It is also an effect that is not permanent, if the basilica is destroyed you would lose the effect until you rebuild it again.

1 Basílica 10%
2 Basílicas 20%
3 Basílicas 30%

Note:
Originally, the Papal Arsenal card cut delivery times in half.

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the problem with that, is that you are forcing people to use 2 more card spaces, than just using one in fourth, being really more of a nerf than a buff.

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Good argument, but I think it would be offset by being able to get the benefits before Age 4.

With Uffizi you would get 20% in Age 2
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The other option is to move the Papal Arsenal to Age III

Edited image:
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In this case the Italians could FF and use the papal units for a rush.

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uffizi is a good card but in 1v1 supremacy, you have to prioritize other shipments, and the basilica upgrade is probably not even in your deck because it is very bad.
In team games the chances of sending uffizi are higher, but the improvement of the basilica is the same as above.
Being the only way to get %100 profit would be in treaty games, making most top players discard it.
What I would propose would be a card that increases the speed of sending temporarily, that way maybe in the time of a shipment you get two and that’s it.

in that case most of the top players would use a company card.

papal arsenal is too op in third

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Ok, I admit that when viewed that way it doesn’t sound too bad, but the question is, how fast would papal shipments arrive for a 60-second card to be profitable?

PS: The beginning of Italy is very tortuous.

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I would say %50~%60 so that way 2 shipments arrive in the time of one. and maybe it also affects the units in the quarters/establishments, but to a lesser extent.

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Papal units are a support units, they aren’t meant to rush.

Look at the lancers, they have tons of HP, but low attack overall, the same goes fo the the papal guard. Schiavoni can be better, but again they are more of a support unit for your muskets dragoons.

But then you get to the original papal shipment time, which was nerfed, so it’s unlikely that they’ll ever buff them back this way.

Small adjustments more than buffs in my opinion.

Lombards needs some buff, but maybe more in the late game. In the early game they need to become more accesible, since you either pay for them or you need to train another architect.

The basilica units are fine instead, they shouldn’t be the core of your army, just a support unit among your army.

In my opinion, the standar units are the problem… italy do have a lot of options, but none of them shine particulary.

It’s not that much complicated, you get cheaper stell traps, which means you need to gather less resources and spread your vills among different resources for less time.

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So, here is some good in depth analysis of the lombards:

Those videos explain pretty well how the lombards works, and what are their strength and how to use them.

I’ll add something else thought:

Here is a small experiment to see how the lombards works after usury. Basically, on a 300 food investment, you gain +34 resources, that’s about an 8/9% increase for wood and gold. If you invest wood, you get more resources only because you always get +50% food. If you invest gold, you get the same amout of wood and food of before.

That’s why the usury card is bad in my opinion, it’s the only card that gives you extra resources, but not that much and not in all cases.

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Lombards in their current state are just a gimmick, they serve very little purpose other than being a way to fix macro if you’re accidentally stacking wood or something. It takes ages and tons of resource and card investments for the lombards to even pay for themselves.

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Lombards are a way to give you tons of resources through the HC though…

I mean, in age 2 you get 875 resources, a standard shipment gives you 700. In age 3 you 1875 resources, compared to the 1000 crates, and in age 4 its 3750 resources.

That’s why the lombards are good.

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The shipments are fine, I wouldn’t build any though or invest other resources because it’s not worth the gain.

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The lombard system does not seem like an investment, it is more like an exchange.

Maybe the capitalism card should make the lombards produce 1.00 gold per second.

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All they need to do is make the lombards return +10% total res, then it may actually be worth it.

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The issue is this requires you to actually spend architect time building the damn things, and there are more useful things to build most of the time.

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Yes, it works only if you get a second architect…

Maybe you should be able to receive more lombard wagon, or have a HC shipment that gives you 1 architect.