Italy need buffs

El bersaglieri es medio malo, su resistencia a rango es baja. No aguanatan en combastes largos.

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I think that a training mechanic in the papal units that does not interfere with the shipments would help. I understand that they are complementary units and that the idea is that your basic army composition is not one of those units but that they are so slow shipping and cost 900 resources really sucks.

Perhaps some economic buff that compensates for the absence of a second factory would help.
something that improves the durability of the bersaglieri in battle would be welcome.

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The pavisier isn’t bad in age 3, it trades attack for a bit more HP and resistance, which isn’t optimal for a skirm but ok.

The problem is, they aren’t great in age 2, and they aren’t great in age 4, so the time window to actually use them isn’t that big. In that time you need to send 3 card, and even then they are just good, decent, but not a fantastic or supr good, since pavisiers wins skirms fights, but they counter other units less effectively, so it’s a trade off.

Also, their unique stances at this moment they aren’t used, since it takes too much time to change stance, and they can’t kite very well, which keeps them back a lot in age 2.

I wouldn’t suggest to change their stats in age 3, hell I wouldn’t change their stats in age 2 either… I would just like to see it gain the guard and imp upgrades for a smoother transition in age 4 (the guard upgrade should give them just a +30% stats, not the +1 range) and then I would like to see the unit make use of its unique ability more often.

Pavisiers are better vs cav than their skirmisher unit which does 50% (instead of the usual 75%) to cav and they aren’t that bad in Age IV with only veteran. So they do have their use even in Industrial age even without roman tactics…

The problem is in Imperial Age they behind in 2 upgrades rather than 1.

Perhaps they should have the longbow treatment.
British pre-DE longbows could only be Veteran level without the Yeomen card that required a level 25 home city.

They aren’t bad at all in 1v1 I guess considering you’ll never go imperial. The issue is so many cards are needed for them to remain viable, an extra card in roman tactics instead of just a guard upgrade as well. The italian meta seems to be industrial focused as well and it’s so much easier just to go industrial and you have age 4 skirms ready.

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Been mastering italy recently on casual ladder 3v3, 4v4. They are really strong, so strong its kind of boring. You just need to take advantage of their mechanics. Every technology gives you a villager, so you can do a vill boom really fast and cheap with market technology’s, then arsenal techs (with the card that cut its prices in half) and then with the cheap techs from Basilica and even mills or estates. The other important mechanic is architect. You have to build the five of them asap and send the card that speeds up architect construction rate. Then you have free buildings till the end of the match. What i like to do is, later on, send the card that increase outpost limit, and build a lot of them wherever i’m fighting the enemy. Bersaglieri are really good, musk is ok, you got halbds, which is nice. Lombards are a good source of income and a way to balance macro. Idk, they feel really smooth and strong overall.

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Malta xbows also get extra HP from their civ bonus, it can get more attack and even more HP then the pavisier, so there really isn’t a comparison with the pavisier, the 2 units are just on 2 completely different levels.

True, in a direct confrontation the pavisier would survive more, but usually the goal of a light ranged infantry is to deal damage, not to tank, so again a unit that deals more damage at range and kill the enemy units faster is better in this case.

Not to complain about the pavisier, it is a light infantry that works differently, but still I don’t think that it’s enough to call it OP…

Anyway it’s main problem isn’t it’s stats, which aren’t bad at all, it’s main problem is that if the games goes in age 4, especially if it’s a 1v1, you don’t have the time to switch into bersaglieri, and the pavisiers won’t be as much effective as any other skirm in the game, even if you ship roman tactics.

Also, their stances takes too much time to be really useful, and all of that for a unit that is heavy on wood.

True, pavisiers+dragoons is a good combo for Italy, but massing pavisiers isn’t really that easy, and if the game goes on in age 4, that mass isn’t really that useful.

Yes, and that’s why you can mix papal units with bersaglieri, which will stun enemy units and snowball the fight in your favor.

Yes but it’ll take a lot of cards and shipments then…

And even with roman tactics, the arbalest for example is still a better unit stat-wise.

I don’t think that it matters a lot when you fight a unit that will counter both units anyway…

I dont see how heave pavese and the HP card is a lot of cards

yeah but with an imp level pavisier its even tankier, and as with earlier analysis, the cover ability is like giving the unit more resistance so in effect a late game pavisier that is covered is like it having(will need to actually do the math, since i dont know how the math order works with this) - just off the top of my head it works out to being like having the pavisier having 50 range armour - which is abit ridiculous now that I think about it.

and again in a lategame situation with developed eco where a guard/imp level pavesier make sense, snowballing isnt that important, tankiness matters more

The reason the bersaglieri is strong atm is that in an FI scenario, where you are sort of trying to get an unit advantage fast when eco arent fully maxed, then snowballing matters

And steel bolts, that it’s probably the best and most important card… and roman tactics.

That’s a total of 4 HC card on a civ that also have a 5% xp penalty on shipments and the need to also ship papal units. It’s true that they are divided with 1 in age 2, 2 in age 3 and 1 in age 4, but still it’s overall a lot.

If you put in cover ability you lose on ranged resistance though, so you don’t have 50%, but a bit less.

Also, they take too much time to change stance, so most of the times I just give up on changing the stances.

the numbers I posted above are without roman tactics, so even assuming just 2 cards with imp upgrades the unit has reached ungodly level of power, steel bolts would be just icing on the cake

the argument is that just letting the unit get imp upgrade it gets to a whole different power level

how so? i am talking about the damage sponge ability that like the papal lancer has.

Assuming it applies the damage reduction multiplicatively after armour and assuming heavy pavese it first reduce the damage by 35% in volley mode due to range armour then 25% due to damage spone iirc it should be (0.65x0.75)= 0.4875 which is pretty close.

After playing several games with Italy both 1v1 with team, the changes I would make would be:
1-Move the pontifical zuavo to third, serving as a life battery (since really its description makes it seem 100% better than it is).
2-To give the Basilica the option to take out papal artillery in 4th (300 of each resource for 1 of these), since against civs that also have a good fi, you feel the disadvantage of being able to take out real artillery in a better way.

More debatable changes:
Personally with the nerf that received the uffizi card, I would move it to first like Mexico (construction cathedral), if necessary I would remove the exp. bonus of the lombardy.

Creo que porque esta bugeada o algo por el estilo, en ese caso recomendaría que alguien reportara el bug, porque hay demasiada gente que solo se queja y culpan a Italia o a las revoluciones. :expressionless: