japan does not have drummers or ranged cavalry caracole. the also lack some artillery techs too
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You need like 2 shipments and golden pavilion. That’s an allin in age 2, where you should be getting the shrine or the torii gates.
By that time must civs should be FFing and getting cannon.
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I think moving 0.5 speed from Ashigaru to Samurai might be a good idea. Samurai is just way too easy to counter to justify that cost as it is right now. The moment japan makes samurai they lose.
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I dot think we need to evaluate a speed nerf with the civ overall rather then just the unit. cause we have 4 musk units with more then 4 speed now ( well 5 if we count nizam but they are more niche) with the gascenya and carolean and the bolas as well.
each of them fit into their respective civ and weaknesses should also be specific to the civ.
Japan should be like relatively threatening for the eco they have so i would rather nerf their eco potential rather then nerf the units. Japan alreaedy gathers food slower then other civs so nerfing their food costs feels more impactful to me. 90 food 40 coin for the ashi is more then enough, same with the yumi maybe 65 food
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is there any data that supports that japan is actually that strong, which would justify such a heavy nerf? Japan units (except ashi) are all very specialised and most are pretty mediocre. So nerfing one core unit would put them in a pretty underwhelming position. It would also kill any agressive builds for japan, since with yumis you cant really be agressive and japans weak early economy cant get out many ashis, especially with 90 food cost. So that nerf would literally make japan more passive, which is the thing people hate about japan anyway lol
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No, most data points to japan being balanced, not having any favored match-ups. This is just the monthly nerf japan thread.
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I would only suggest that shogun would train morutarus in batches of 5 instead 10
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daymio + ashi attack and japan cons
with pavillion age 2 you can get them to 37 dmg
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Popular opinion along with Kaiserklein (#1) agree Japan is too strong.
The proof is in the pudding, unraidable economy, resource generating maphack buildings (with heavenly kami shrines are super cheap and rebuilt faster than you can burn them down), one of the best ecos in the game, not macro intensive, best military in the game, second most mobile and strong military behind lakota. Also dansil makes a good point above^.
P.S.
Maybe instead of nerfing ashigaru speed, heavenly kami should be nerfed, reduce the cost reduction of shrines or keep the same current benefits but make shrines build slower.
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I have a theory that if shrines cost wood and coin (say, 75/80w 50c), then the scaling on wood reduction from port cons and kami would be smaller-- since both wouldn’t affect the coin cost. it would increase the macro requirements for a shrine boom, slow down dedicated naked booms with the cost reductions, while lowering the total vill seconds needed for them without using the reductions. Furthermore it would give you a way to use your opening coin crate, making market start easier (berry tech would use that little extra wood and coin). Finally it would also force japan onto a second coin mine earlier.
this is just a theorycraft I had in mind but I believe it would slow the scaling a little bit and open up the age 1 a bit more.
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That’s as close to an all-in as Japan can get.
You waste 2 shipments, the eco boom of port consulate and xp/boom of shrine wonder/torii gates. You will be very behind if you don’t do significant damage.
By that time most civs will be FFing and serving you cannons. FF is the preferred strategy against Japan anyway.
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Or better yet, reduce shrine resource output while increasing viliager cap, just like how they did with mexico. problem solved. No need to force everybody to relearn japan after 12 years.
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Japan has the best age2 and 3 counters to artillery, so cannons are rendered useless.
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No, they really don’t.
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They have “culverins” that train from stables and a culverin-falconet hybrid they can ship from the homecity twice. So yes, Japan eats enemy artillery for breakfast.
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They are also very expensive for the 9th minute mark. Even for japan. Also the stable culverins have been nerfed and are no longer that much of a threat.
Anyway, since we are on the topic of stacking auras, all TAD civs do this. All 3 have wonders, cards or consulate options that basically amount to the same effects when stacked. The generic musketeer cannon ball is very difficult to deal with as Japan.
However, the only “problem” one may find with Japan is that they can stack them earlier in the game, and that earlier moment coincides with their eco boom spike (this is what any japan player worth their salt would do). For example, India has an equivalent to japanese isolation but it only becomes available in age 4 through a card(which is TEAM, may I add).
It is also generally accepted that Japan late game is trash compared to other civs, due to weaker economy. So my suggestion is to distribute some power around. This an be done in various ways, like making the pavilion increase in power the later you build it (so that for example if it is built in industrial or imperial age it would give somewhat 1-2% bigger bonuses than it does now, and if is built earlier gives less bonuses). The same treatment could be applied to isolation, scaling bonuses as you age up.
Japan is also more vulnerable to losing its bonuses. Sniping the golden pavilion means their aura is lost forever.
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Quoting guys saying japan is OP is just a popularity contest. Japan is one of the most unpopular civs, so ofc most ppl think that. I havent seen kaisers opinion, hazza for example thinks japan are ok. And now? whos right?
5 yabus dont deal consistently with 2 falcs, while 2 culvs do 100% of the time. Saying they have the best anti art in the game when in reality japan is very weak to a age 3 falc push and is often forced to yolo nagis or ashis into falcs. Also yabus really also just melt vs artillery fire, since they have low hp and lower range than all art… if you care enough to micro. In super lategame japan also doesnt have a good answer vs art
Dansils idea with shrine cost would be okay i guess.
Nerfing heavenly kami will literally do nothing except punish one build, which isnt even the most popular anymore (most ppl just go 2 vill + market + torii and skip kami).
Theorycrafting with golden pavillion in age 2 is also kinda nonsense, you invest 2 cards, 1 age up and one 200 wood building into getting these numbers. russian cossacks with boyar + cav hp have similar stats (compaired to comparable units) but noone complains about them
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i do think pre 7 min they are pretty weak and japan can be punished during this time with early agression
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i didn’t mean you would do that immediately in age 2, but thats all completely standard age 2 japan stuff.
my suggestion for coin cost added to shrines would reduce their dependence on kami (by cheapening shrines in vill seconds, slightly redicing the cost savings from kami) and making a 2 shrine and shrine + market open still viable. could even go tp + shrine on it too. forcing japan out of base earlier for a second mine makes them less stupid at the 10 minute mark, where they often remain entirely in base. I wouldn’t directly call it a nerf, it would have pros and cons. I’m also not set that its the correct solution, just that it was something i had considered and thought was worth bringing up.
Ashi speed remains to me the single most abused component of japan. not a fan. not sure the best solution though. My problem with japan generally isn’t that i think its overpowered, but that it is generally easier to play at a given skill level than other civs
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Except they wouldn’t go out. They would ship gold instead of wood and still do the exact same boom. This is a change for the sake of change, like how brits got +5 wood on manors to appease the QQ.
If you want to force more going out, maybe bump the maximum number of animals to 6 or 8 to max out a shrine (keep same max income, increase no of animals, thus nerfing shrines gain per animal)
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