we mustn’t forget that javelin riders also can get 20rr and 4x vs cav, which are enormous buffs, plus 2.5x vs artillery (i believe ruyters are 2x?)
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I was using the Age 2 stats of Ruyter, it gets 20% stronger in Age 3.
But the Dutch gather coin faster plus they have banks.
So 1 Dutch coin is worth less than 1 African coin, especially with the Ethiopians that have to choose between Coin and Influence.
I have to agree that the Javelin Rider is better that’s why I said the stats should be changed, for example the HP reduced.
Hausa don’t have another anti cavalry option in Age 2.
One solution would be to make them worse overall but give them a card that makes them a lot better in Age 3.
They have muskets equivalent, they can live with it.
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Wasn’t that Age 3 or do I mix things up?
Pretty sure they have it on age 2. Might be mistaken too though. Can someone confirm? I don’t have access to the game
i think both ethiopia and hausa have a musket equivalent in age 2 but i cant see a reason to make them currently
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Idea:
Change HP to 180 from 210.
Change resistance to 20% melee from 10% ranged.
The upgrade that gives them +10% Range resistance now just changes the reistance from melee to ranged.
Than at the end they have a bit less HP but before that they are as good as before at countering melee cavalry.
I think there should be a pop-cost-effectiveness model regarding unit stats design:
(The numbers are made up. Just use them for comparison with each other, not absolute values)
Let’s take cavalry for example, because most regular infantry are 1 pop:
Use hussar and dragoon as the “standard cavalry” (SC). Every unit listed here are compared to their counterpart by the role:
- 2 pop, 1 SC cost, 1 SC effectiveness (example: hussar/dragoon)
- 2 pop, 0.8 SC cost, 0.8 SC effectiveness (example: uhlan)
- 1 pop, 0.75 SC cost, 0.7 SC effectiveness (example: cossack/ruyter)
- 1 pop, 0.5 SC cost, 0.6 SC effectiveness (example: steppe rider/keshik)
3 pop cavalry are rare and do not replace the regular unit, so they are not taken into consideration.
Again, these numbers are mostly made up, and please suggest some adjustments to the numbers if you feel necessary. But the intuition is that they should not be linear. If a unit is too pop-wise effective, it should have a much higher cost. The same otherwise.
And there is also an upper/lower limit of pop-wise effectiveness. You cannot justify a 1 pop unit with 2 pop effectiveness even with a 2 pop cost. That’s still op. The same otherwise.
Unless the civ has extremely good or bad economy, its unit should fit in some kind of model like this. Now javelin rider looks a bit out of place.
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Indeed Hausa does not have an musket unit in age2, but it feels like Hausa cannot easily abuse the javelin as much as Ethiopia. So maybe Ethiopia gets it in age3 and hausa in age 2.
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Usually the pop to cost effectiveness is that for every 100 resource, you cost 1 slot. Those who go above this ratio are considered pop effective units(cossaks e. G) .
Respectively, bellow are pop ineffective units for resources cost (see mercs).
Not that simple. It’s not a simple linear relation.
For example, cossack is 1 pop, 0.75 hussar cost, roughly below 0.75 hussar performance.
If you have something like 1 pop, 0.9 hussar cost (<- changed the number here), 0.9 hussar performance (made up), that is problematic.
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Cossaks are more effective than hussars hp and damage wise per pop iirc. I think the 2 possible nerfs for javelins are either a cost increase or moved to age3 where they have more counters.
I was able to successfully counter them with mercs, but not every civ can do it.
Even so, they overshadow all other units for both hausa and Ethiopia, so they need to rebalanced a bit.
Of course. 0.7 hussar > 0.5 hussar, but you need a higher relative cost for that great cost-effectiveness (again, not linear).
And there should be a cap for pop-wise cost effectiveness for those “half units”. In the extreme case, you cannot make a “half unit” with the same performance as the “standard unit”, even if it relatively costs much more.
So I think the best nerf to javelin riders is to make it 2 pop, and slightly adjust the stats and cost accordingly.
They cost more per pop slot than a hussar, but they deal more damage and hp per slot.
The problem with javelins is the damage and hp per slot. They feel waaaaay too tanky for their cost
Not even prenerf yabu were so tanky. Their damage is fine, but hp feels too much.
210 hp for 1 slot is too much for a ranged unit.
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They do not, I have played Hausa and I thought they did too at first, that’s with the Akan age up that they have musks.
I think that if we nerf javs they should not be nerfed against cav, because then Hausa has no anti cav, so maybe like a negative multiplier against light infantry or like I suggested earlier an attack decrease with extra multi against cav so the dmg against cav is the same as it currently is, also an hp nerf by like 40 would work too.
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Yes. For hausa things are more complicated. But Ethiopia is very strong when massing them.
Ethiopia really doesn’t use javelin riders often in the early game because of the neftenia from my experience playing against them, and for that reason I think think moving the javs to age 3 would change anything for Ethiopia either, the combination of the javs with the mortar is OP though. And I think an hp nerf or an attack nerf would work but not moving the age of the unit or the population cost.
Yes, they can use the muskets, but javelin is just better. You should try them out. They dominate age2 battles.
I’m not too sure about age 2 since I’ve been going semi ff but I might try it out, I don’t think they are insanely strong age 3 though but they definitely are better than vanilla dragoons.
Don’t worry, they dominate age3 as well. Just go all out on them.