Jin Dynasty critical analysis and unit types and eco mechanics

Off the top I am pleased with the intricate variant design and the high modality of play styles, at least theoretically…

What is clear is cavalry is CORE to gameplay hence the synergy with the Grasslands mechanic which exclusively benefits cavalry. Yet the tuning and functions of the unit roster are far from intuitive (at least not intuitive to my smooth brain :face_with_bags_under_eyes: ).

Let’s start with the worst unit first:

Mohe Tribesman

This unit cost more than standard archers and takes longer to train. While the unit is faster than archers and technically kill spearman in one less volley than archers, their kiting is inferior, gimpy, AND spearmen can easily kill this unit especially in extremely high masses where micro is near impossible. Also they trade verses archers 1 to 1 but b/c they are more expensive means archers are a soft cost-effective counter.

This means all 3 base units counter this unit. The singular benefit to this unit is it presents Jin Dynasty a Rus like Knight/Horse Archer comp! Right?! …

Iron Pagoda

If you do not include the cost and training discount of the Grassland, this unit takes too long to train and its splash damage only hits spears archers and villagers as those are the only units that clump up close enough together to even see the splash dmg. Either the training time and cost needs to be reduced or the splash dmg needs a significant buff by extending the radius!! If instead the devs want these units to function like the mongol variant special lancers then the unit needs a lot more HP.

Bed Crossbows

These unit are better than springlads in cost, train time and availability compared to the springald! However, it’s inferior in killing heavy melee ? I still have some ideas to try out with this unit, so I think it’s still promising.

Before I get on to the next point I do like most all the Jin units can’t be single massed in the same french knights or desert raider can be at times.

Economy

This is technically by far the most lackluster aspect about this civ in terms of sheer momentum. Building mounted villagers on paper eclipses building standard villagers in about 7mins of gameplay! However no civ essentially has “standard” villagers, every civ has an eco gimmick; for example the tughlaq villager which has a modest 5% baked in gathering bonus and on paper the tughlaq eco cache will always outpace the mounted villagers resource???

It gets worse. Bc these villagers cost gold and they consume resources twice as fast, it means this civ gets pushed out to unsafe resources much faster than any other civ, while not netting an eco advantage for sometime if ever??? Imagine that 2 civs are effectively in lock step in resources cache but the one civ has to transition to 2nd deer pack in half the time (with MEH :confused: units at that?)???

If they left all the units above as is but made this eco POP, out the gate?? Idk… right now a mounted villager is worth in most cases 2.2 standard villagers but is trained every 35s. Compare that and their cost to standard villagers and you have a situation of the mounted villagers are 25.7% more efficient at gathering per second it takes to train a mounted villager compared to standard villagers. However… Mounted villagers COST 35% more resources per second it takes to train compared to a standard villagers. So just on paper the mounted villagers has to over come that before they can really excel over the standard villager. THEN REMEMBER TO FACTOR IN THAT no civ has JUST standard villagers as their complete eco…means mounted villagers have an even bigger hill to climb and they need to climb that hill by a cap of 20 (26)???

Here is a Gemini generated graph of 20min of eco from a few different villager types. Keep in mind I made the food infinite under the TC and gold infinite at 9 tiles away. Things that are clearly untrue…yet check this out.

OTD villagers cache takes the lead followed by tughlaq then mounted. Mind you this doesn’t factor in wheel barrow nor eco upgrades and the Jin dynasty villager STOP training mounted villagers at 20 (26 in this graph) before reverting to standard villager production hence why you can see it tapering off. Regardless, the therortical, yet highly unrealistic eco, still puts jin cache eco at 3rd, which in reality is worse given eco bonuses not considered (upgrades and other niche civ benefits) and resources not being infinite near the TC…

I’ll edit the post once my limits are reset :face_with_bags_under_eyes:, but I wanna have a mounted villager eco cached that exceeds all others by minute 8 and that be upfront benefit of this civ, that others need to slow you down and or pick you apart once you go out onto resources. And I want that achieved by either a cost reduction or gathering rate increase if not both.

UPDATE:

new graph with the same unrealistic stipulations above however I asked gemini to reduce the cost and buff the gather rate slightly to allow mounted villagers to take the eco cache lead by 8mins yet not dwarf the 2nd place eco (OTD) by more than 10% by the 20min mark shown.

it reduced the cost by 5 food and 5 gold and then boost the raw gathering rate by ~18%. If sure the dev have better simulators where they can better dial in the effectiveness of this villager type.

1 Like

I think 2 TC meta for this civ is a mistake; the civ eco is already too slow and take times to ramp up; so going 2TC makes it doubly slow no?

I think this is a full single TC mass Iron Pagoda with support (spears and/or mohe tribesman) into semi FC using the only viable age 3 landmark to grab future exposed resources and relics; THEN going into 2nd TC once you grab the Neutral markets.

Castle is when the Iron Pagoda is at its strongest; and when basically everything this civ has to offer unlocks.

So Full mounted villager creation from time 0s

macro to feudal which occurs around 2:35

build with 2 mounted villagers the stable landmark

put 1 M. Vil on straggler, send 1 to build a mill on deer; keep 2 on TC reindeer, 3 (soon 4) on gold.

You wanna have survival techique researched soon after you age; you should be able to que a Iron Pagoda and Mounted vil while housed (10/10) but just have enough time to get 50w and build a house b4 your POP blocked. From that point use those few units to raid and defend yourself while you semi FC. Basically it’s a Macadonian semi FC build!

Okay after running some Gemini simulations and a brief gaming session last night, I’m prepared to say this civ needs to be played like an aggressive French and it can rival French if French’s gold is exposed on the front side of their base. Also given the gathering rate and walk speed and HP of MVs a drush will only limit their continued access to gold but it won’t really delay them, also they can pull everything and burn the tower in construction/fight small numbers of spearman.

Most of the powerful civs, with Otto as the only exception , need stone and or gold to get their game plan going. This civ can get to feudal as fast as China and if you do so with the stable landmark you can have a harassing unit on the exposed enemy side way before the 4min mark. And bc you can make both cav and cav archers from the stable, the enemy can only be guaranteed protection by dropping a tower, aka deviate from the meta flow of the game!!

I’ll update this post tonight or tomorrow with more game data.

Very good article, but there are some details that were not taken into account, such as: the villager’s higher movement speed, which saves a bit of travel time, allows them to escape more easily, and above all, above all, they only cost 1 population. So there are fewer houses to build at the start of the game, and in the late game you can have 36 (at best) workers population that does not count toward the population cap.

1 Like

I agree with everything except the mounted villagers. I think the mounted villagers is the only thing that is considered good for Jin. The wheelbarrow tech + mounted villagers makes them fast as knights. This allows you to take unsafe resources without a tower. Just need good map awareness.

With the correct build order, I was able to keep up with abby 3 TC build with 2 TC. So I do not believe their eco is that bad.

1 Like

I would suggest leaning into trade with them! Their tributary state and reindeer traders really give that gold income a good boost in a cost effective way that’s not a whole other tc

1 Like

Indeed, the gold income from trade can be insanely high if you have two or more vassal states, especially with the “Alliance Conducted at Sea” technology.

Normally, vassal states give you 10%, and with this technology, they give you 25%.

With two vassal states, it’s +50%, and with three, it’s +75%. And I’ve tested it—it works! On maps like Carmel, in team play, it’s one of the best civilizations for trade.