# Jin Dynasty critical analysis and unit types and eco mechanics **URL:** \ **Category:** IV - Discussion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2026, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241 "2026-05-19T20:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2026, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/1 "2026-05-19T20:31:19Z")
Off the top I am pleased with the intricate variant design and the high modality of play styles, at least theoretically… What is clear is cavalry is CORE to gameplay hence the synergy with the Grasslands mechanic which exclusively benefits cavalry. Yet the tuning and functions of the unit roster are far from intuitive (at least not intuitive to my smooth brain 🫩 ). Let’s start with the worst unit first: **Mohe Tribesman** This unit cost more than standard archers and takes longer to train. While the unit is faster than archers and technically kill spearman in one less volley than archers, their kiting is inferior, gimpy, AND spearmen can easily kill this unit especially in extremely high masses where micro is near impossible. Also they trade verses archers 1 to 1 but b/c they are more expensive means archers are a soft cost-effective counter. This means all 3 base units counter this unit. The singular benefit to this unit is it presents Jin Dynasty a Rus like Knight/Horse Archer comp! Right?! … **Iron Pagoda** If you do not include the cost and training discount of the Grassland, this unit takes too long to train and its splash damage only hits spears archers and villagers as those are the only units that clump up close enough together to even see the splash dmg. Either the training time and cost needs to be reduced or the splash dmg needs a significant buff by extending the radius!! If instead the devs want these units to function like the mongol variant special lancers then the unit needs a lot more HP. **Bed Crossbows** These unit are better than springlads in cost, train time and availability compared to the springald! However, it’s inferior in killing heavy melee ? I still have some ideas to try out with this unit, so I think it’s still promising. Before I get on to the next point I do like most all the Jin units can’t be single massed in the same french knights or desert raider can be at times. **Economy** This is technically by far the most lackluster aspect about this civ in terms of sheer momentum. Building mounted villagers on paper eclipses building standard villagers in about 7mins of gameplay! However no civ essentially has “standard” villagers, every civ has an eco gimmick; for example the tughlaq villager which has a modest 5% baked in gathering bonus and on paper the tughlaq eco cache will always outpace the mounted villagers resource??? It gets worse. Bc these villagers cost gold and they consume resources twice as fast, it means this civ gets pushed out to unsafe resources much faster than any other civ, while not netting an eco advantage for sometime if ever??? Imagine that 2 civs are effectively in lock step in resources cache but the one civ has to transition to 2nd deer pack in half the time (with MEH 😕 units at that?)??? If they left all the units above as is but made this eco POP, out the gate?? Idk… right now a mounted villager is worth in most cases 2.2 standard villagers but is trained every 35s. Compare that and their cost to standard villagers and you have a situation of the mounted villagers are 25.7% more efficient at gathering per second it takes to train a mounted villager compared to standard villagers. However… Mounted villagers COST 35% more resources per second it takes to train compared to a standard villagers. So just on paper the mounted villagers has to over come that before they can really excel over the standard villager. THEN REMEMBER TO FACTOR IN THAT no civ has JUST standard villagers as their complete eco…means mounted villagers have an even bigger hill to climb and they need to climb that hill by a cap of 20 (26)??? Here is a Gemini generated graph of 20min of eco from a few different villager types. Keep in mind I made the food infinite under the TC and gold infinite at 9 tiles away. Things that are clearly untrue…yet check this out. ![Screenshot_20260519-162025 (1)](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/5/9/5970615eda289aaf41c86cdb086e03c845cad316.jpeg) OTD villagers cache takes the lead followed by tughlaq then mounted. Mind you this doesn’t factor in wheel barrow nor eco upgrades and the Jin dynasty villager STOP training mounted villagers at 20 (26 in this graph) before reverting to standard villager production hence why you can see it tapering off. Regardless, the therortical, yet highly unrealistic eco, still puts jin cache eco at 3rd, which in reality is worse given eco bonuses not considered (upgrades and other niche civ benefits) and resources not being infinite near the TC… I’ll edit the post once my limits are reset 🫩, but I wanna have a mounted villager eco cached that exceeds all others by minute 8 and that be upfront benefit of this civ, that others need to slow you down and or pick you apart once you go out onto resources. And I want that achieved by either a cost reduction or gathering rate increase if not both. UPDATE: new graph with the same unrealistic stipulations above however I asked gemini to reduce the cost and buff the gather rate slightly to allow mounted villagers to take the eco cache lead by 8mins yet not dwarf the 2nd place eco (OTD) by more than 10% by the 20min mark shown. ![Code_Generated_Image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/a/1/a143f2b81104b13a4e67d00424b0b5151aac0767.png) it reduced the cost by 5 food and 5 gold and then boost the raw gathering rate by ~18%. If sure the dev have better simulators where they can better dial in the effectiveness of this villager type. ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 4:31am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/2 "2026-05-20T04:31:03Z")
I think 2 TC meta for this civ is a mistake; the civ eco is already too slow and take times to ramp up; so going 2TC makes it doubly slow no? I think this is a full single TC mass Iron Pagoda with support (spears and/or mohe tribesman) into semi FC using the only viable age 3 landmark to grab future exposed resources and relics; THEN going into 2nd TC once you grab the Neutral markets. Castle is when the Iron Pagoda is at its strongest; and when basically everything this civ has to offer unlocks. So Full mounted villager creation from time 0s macro to feudal which occurs around 2:35 build with 2 mounted villagers the stable landmark put 1 M. Vil on straggler, send 1 to build a mill on deer; keep 2 on TC reindeer, 3 (soon 4) on gold. You wanna have survival techique researched soon after you age; you should be able to que a Iron Pagoda and Mounted vil while housed (10/10) but just have enough time to get 50w and build a house b4 your POP blocked. From that point use those few units to raid and defend yourself while you semi FC. Basically it’s a Macadonian semi FC build! ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2026, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/3 "2026-05-21T19:36:30Z")
Okay after running some Gemini simulations and a brief gaming session last night, I’m prepared to say this civ needs to be played like an aggressive French and it can rival French if French’s gold is exposed on the front side of their base. Also given the gathering rate and walk speed and HP of MVs a drush will only limit their continued access to gold but it won’t really delay them, also they can pull everything and burn the tower in construction/fight small numbers of spearman. Most of the powerful civs, with Otto as the only exception , need stone and or gold to get their game plan going. This civ can get to feudal as fast as China and if you do so with the stable landmark you can have a harassing unit on the exposed enemy side way before the 4min mark. And bc you can make both cav and cav archers from the stable, the enemy can only be guaranteed protection by dropping a tower, aka deviate from the meta flow of the game!! I’ll update this post tonight or tomorrow with more game data. ---
**Author:** ![Urian](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/urian/32/155335_2.png) [@Urian](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Urian)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2026, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/4 "2026-05-22T12:03:13Z")
Very good article, but there are some details that were not taken into account, such as: the villager’s higher movement speed, which saves a bit of travel time, allows them to escape more easily, and above all, above all, they only cost 1 population. So there are fewer houses to build at the start of the game, and in the late game you can have 36 (at best) workers population that does not count toward the population cap. ---
**Author:** ![ItzJover](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/itzjover/32/176928_2.png) [@ItzJover](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/ItzJover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2026, 3:36pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/5 "2026-05-22T15:36:27Z")
I agree with everything except the mounted villagers. I think the mounted villagers is the only thing that is considered good for Jin. The wheelbarrow tech + mounted villagers makes them fast as knights. This allows you to take unsafe resources without a tower. Just need good map awareness. With the correct build order, I was able to keep up with abby 3 TC build with 2 TC. So I do not believe their eco is that bad. ---
**Author:** ![T0fuZomb1e](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/t0fuzomb1e/32/210679_2.png) [@T0fuZomb1e](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/T0fuZomb1e)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2026, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/6 "2026-05-24T15:26:38Z")
I would suggest leaning into trade with them! Their tributary state and reindeer traders really give that gold income a good boost in a cost effective way that’s not a whole other tc ---
**Author:** ![GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/goldenarmorx/32/30565_2.png) [@GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/GoldenArmorX)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2026, 6:59pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/7 "2026-05-24T18:59:11Z")
Indeed, the gold income from trade can be insanely high if you have two or more vassal states, especially with the “Alliance Conducted at Sea” technology. Normally, vassal states give you 10%, and with this technology, they give you 25%. With two vassal states, it’s +50%, and with three, it’s +75%. And I’ve tested it—it works! On maps like Carmel, in team play, it’s one of the best civilizations for trade. ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2026, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/8 "2026-07-11T01:22:19Z")
ALRIGHT… its been a few months a few hundred games and i’m finally willing to admit this civ sucks… The unit approach is unique, so points given for coming at it from a different angle but the unit composition is too easily countered by spear/archer spear/crossbow. Also the unit roster doesnt do a good job covering its weaknesses. And bed crossbows are actually a nerf compared to springalds vs armored units, so they’re literally only good vs spears; and “good” is a bit overstated. Iron Pagoda splash doesnt extend far enough to be meaningful in melee combat inspite that it states it’s supposed to be good in melee combat. tribesman are counterd heavily by the unit they counter; maa and spears can be used as a standard front but then you’re bleeding your potentially eco advantage to spam a frontline b/c u dont have good lancer units. NOB have been properly nerfed but that also means they’re not a cover all anymore. Ultra ultra range mass blobs are a serious thread to this civ b/c they cant CHEAPLY blob an equivalent range mass that can stand its ground. Lastly some of the matchups are auto losses ---
**Author:** ![Jace](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/jace/32/210620_2.png) [@Jace](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Jace)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2026, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/9 "2026-07-17T15:55:50Z")
The [Great Pasture](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Pasture "Great Pasture") and [War Stable](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/War_Stable "War Stable") should be able to train non-discounted traders. Right now you can try an eco build where you use the grassland to get cheap traders but it is SUPER awkward because you either build the Great Pasture in the corner of the map and still have to build a market, or you build a market in the corner of the map and have to manually set each free trader’s market each time you get a horse. It’s just a super clunky to try and make use of the ability to get traders for cheap unless you only want 1 trader every 75 seconds. Also I think they should make the ability to get horses for cheap a global ability rather than having to build the stables near the grassland, and allow markets to train the cheap traders in return for horses. Otherwise you basically have to build a Great Pasture in the far corner of the map which is not going to happen in the majority of 1v1s. ---
**Author:** ![Rupfer](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/rupfer/32/146888_2.png) [@Rupfer](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Rupfer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2026, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/10 "2026-07-17T20:04:13Z")
I like Jin Dynasty a lot, but there are some problems: Iron Pagode is much more expensive then a knight, but weaker, very strange Grasslands feel bad because the cavalry of this civ is bad, and when you age up to age 2 the grasslands often remove some trees around your TC and you dont get them back, grasslands only feel good in late game for HP spear man range attack often does not hit, this upgrade feels not worth to be bought sometimes there is only space for 2 or 3 farms around a tradepost Landmarks feel weak, without going into detail Still a great colorful civ, why there is no patch to strenghen them? Its so many months already. ---
**Author:** ![GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/goldenarmorx/32/30565_2.png) [@GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/GoldenArmorX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2026, 1:39am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/11 "2026-07-21T01:39:08Z")
One of Jin Dynasty’s problems in becoming more competitive in 1v1 and on closed maps is that its heavy cavalry can’t compete with other heavy cavalry in terms of cost-effectiveness. I propose the next; - Giving the Iron Pagoda a Bonus: +2/+3/+4 against heavy cavalry or heavy armor units. Its super-heavy sword is enough to justify it, and at least it could hold its own against other early heavy cavalry. ---
**Author:** ![KapteinKind](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/f9ae1b/32.png) [@KapteinKind](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KapteinKind)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2026, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/12 "2026-07-21T11:35:50Z")
That is a smart idea! ---
**Author:** ![Rupfer](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/rupfer/32/146888_2.png) [@Rupfer](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Rupfer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2026, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/13 "2026-07-25T17:18:03Z")
Why are no changes coming for Jin for months now? Someone knows? ---
**Author:** ![GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/goldenarmorx/32/30565_2.png) [@GoldenArmorX](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/GoldenArmorX)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2026, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/14 "2026-07-25T21:25:17Z")
Well, after the June 1st (2026) patch, the game’s meta changed drastically: - Spearman now are usefull, Infantry Civs are good aggain, Abbasid has a new and incredible New Wing, some balance changes for Jin, etc. * * * This is just my guess, but I think the devs has been waiting to see if the balance changes in that last patch would improve Jin Dynasty’s position in the meta, or if someone would come up with a better build for them. However, the situation turned out the opposite: - Many people didn’t know how to play against Jin Dynasty because it was so new. However, a month later, everyone knows it and how to counter it. - In recent tournaments, no pro player considered this civ a winning strategy; in fact, they avoided it as much as possible if they were forced to use it. According to Beasty in a recent video, the effects of his Feudal (II) landmarks aren’t that great, and those of Castle Age (III) and III are pretty underwhelming. The Imperial ones are decent, but you’ll hardly ever reach that age in a 1v1. Well, for the moment it seems the meta is fairly balanced, so I don’t know if there will be any changes until the October/November DLC. Perhaps there will be changes before then, but there’s no news yet. ---
**Author:** ![KapteinKind](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/f9ae1b/32.png) [@KapteinKind](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KapteinKind)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2026, 3:17am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/15 "2026-07-26T03:17:50Z")
They should at least release a patch to fix the bugs with gold gathering and projectiles missing. ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2026, 4:35pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/16 "2026-07-28T16:35:29Z")
What’s the issue with gold?? ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2026, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/17 "2026-07-28T17:18:21Z")
I’m hard stuck at conq2 ceiling with this civ. Some of the matchups that make me crawl up a wall are OTD mega massing spears horseman then sprinkling in support units. 2tc Rus going mega mass horse archers, Byz… Macedonian…2tc English into mega mega mass plus support(such a stupid matchup bc longbows delete your crossbows, your maa and spears can’t sustain mass in front of eng maa, and your bed crossbows are trash vs armored units… I’m gonna try iron pagoda exclusive mass plus bed crossbow support… 🤔) And the majority of those issues center around our horse archers being feckless and Iron Pagoda being underwhelming. And… This civ REQUIRING its diverse comp to maintain competitive, aka you have to have the spears with gunpowder and maa and horse archers and bed crossbows and NoBs and the emissaries staggering the conversions to force military idle times-- example converting enemy backline forces enemy range DPS to take break at depleting your Frontline while you widdle their front. Converting the front isn’t useless but Frontline can still bodyblock and tank DMG even if they’re not returning attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Shneider177](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Shneider177)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2026, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/jin-dynasty-critical-analysis-and-unit-types-and-eco-mechanics/286241/18 "2026-08-02T12:49:52Z")
Copy this Chinese faction specialist!! He’s a 2k ELO player so… easier said than done. name is: **[完颜九思](https://aoe4world.com/players/12294160-)** I’ve watch his recording as much as I can and he employs all kinds of strats: Drush, early WB, always goes Great Pasture, actually often makes use of the Monk Castle landmark, etc. I don’t think he believes in Iron Pagodas out of feudal?? He always proritize making MVs and he doesnt open up 2TC but he pivots early in a FC or feudal aggression to get a 2nd TC. Look him up! Edit (8/5) This guy is very good at the game and… My opinion on mohe tribesman has shifted… They are high skill required units but once properly controlled and massed they are a legit problem. Next I really appreciate is how the strongest thing about this faction early is hunt gathering without professional scout which forces them out on the map. Edit 8/10 This guy is beating some very strong civs with Jin and against other conq3s as high as 2.2k elo? He’s in love with the deer opener plus WB+JIN survival tech. And to be fair 1 MV with full deer techs and WB is worth 3.3 standard vils on sheep?! So 5 MV, one tower and or just run away from raids gives you effectively 15~ vils on sheep worth of food. Watch his replays while you still can!!