Just so you know, indian is an amazing civ

Well if your opponent opens straight pike ofc you can xbows. I still think ca are better here bc they scale better into imp and match your stable units mobility but that’s not the point.

What I mean is the common situation when your opponent goes xbow vs you and then switches into pikes as Indians usually play light cav or camels vs xbow. Both units have extra pierce armor so you could make an argument for both. Ofc you can also play mango or skirm defense but that doesn’t really play into indians strenghts. And precisely this composition can be a bit tricky to deal with as Indians as archers and pikes is way cheaper than light cav or camels and cav archers. And switching into xbow yourself isn’t a good option in mid castle age.

Anyways these situations are somewhat awkward to play against as Indians because you need more and more expensive tech switches compared to other civs (light cav and camels die super hard to pikes while knights can kinda hold against these until pike numbers get high). This gives your opponent momentum to pressures and the Indian player needs to be super on point with macro and transition timings. It’s doable but it’s quite hard if the game is neck to kneck. That’s all I’m saying and that’s why I think a lot of people do not feel comfortable playing the civ.

I would not go camels vs crossbows. Even Indian Camels only get 3 Pierce Armor in Castle Age after Chain Barding. Light Cav makes more sense, since they end up at 5 PA and have 1 more attack than Camels. Still nowhere near as effective as Knights.

I agree with your point about difficult transitions. It’s also awkward because there’s not really a dream composition to use as a goal. Maybe something like Camel + Skirm + Hand Cannon + Bombard Cannon, but that’s very expensive, means no reuse of any Light Cav or crossbows , and the units just aren’t that good. Generic Skirms and bombard, the hand Cannon accuracy-decreasing upgrade is questionable, and Imperial Camels have a high upgrade cost and low armor.

While it’s true they get one less pierce armor than knights, they also cost substantially less. Using the combat simulator, you can buy 13 indian camels for the price of 11 briton knights. Against 25 xbows with perfect micro, the camels win 66% of the time, while the knights win about 15% of the time.

Maybe? But why would you compare the main camel civ’s camels with an archer civ’s knights? They don’t even get Bloodlines. Try Persian Knights against crossbows and I’m guessing the results will look different.

Personally I prefer light cav as well but the reason that especially pros still use camels here oftentimes is that you can simply add a mamgonel behind or if your opponent isn’t pushing your base you can use your mobility, tear down walls with extra dmg vs buildings and raid a bit to eventually add skirms when your eco allows it. By starting off with camels you are quicker in your transitions.

Well actually I even think indian light cav are even more effective vs xbows than regular knights. Since their light cav have 5 piece armor with all upgrades they tank the exact amount of arrows as knights with less pa and more hp. Knights ofc have more dmg output but vs archers armor and hp are most important and light cav only cost food. And with indians eco bonus you can afford to get a lot of them. What makes them worse compared to knights is the possible pike switch ofc which knights in high numbers are still good against while light cav die super hard to these so you quickly would need to get a second unit. That’s again the point of awkward transitions.

Yep, this is what I was referring to. It’s true that Light Cav and Knights both take 40 crossbow shots to die, but the knight takes out the crossbow one hit sooner. If the opponent has not researched archer armor an upgraded knight can take them down in 3 hits, where light cav requires 4. If they have researched any armor upgrades then it’s 4 hits for the knight and 5 for light cav. The light cav’s extra speed does help a little, especially if they are microing. The light cav are probably more cost efficient, but gold is easier to get than food at that stage (so it’s not a massive difference). There’s not a scenario where you can compare them anyway, since Indians don’t have knights (I guess this topic could be useful for Turks deciding between +1 PA LC and knights vs crossbows).

I see your point about camels and easy transitions. I think that just depends on what you expect the opponent to do. If you think they’ll send knights after your siege or Skirms then I can see that working, or start with a few LC then go camels and blacksmith upgrades will already be complete. I wouldn’t make any camels against Mayan Crossbows for example :laughing:

Their camels are quite weak in imp, till much later in the game when Imperial camel is done. That imperial camel upgrade is not worth the cost unless you’re up against Paladins or some unique cavalry like Leitis. Canoneers or Elephant archers are not strong units and they don’t complement each other. Its a very expensive and mediocre army composition.

Not bad, they’re the WORST unique unit in the game. You won’t get any momentum - they’re way too expensive for their worth, slowly created and one of the slowest unique units in the game. On top of all of this, they’re damage output is also very low. If you’re Indians and need some ranged units, Heavy Cavalry Archers are a much better choice.

Doesn’t make much sense. Its affordable for Italians and Portugese. You pay the same cost for Indians.

Maybe at lower elos but mid and higher elos they’re a terrible Arena/Fortress civ. On open maps you could make use of the cheaper vills, extra p.armor on scouts to raid and kill your opponent while defending yourself with stronger camels. On closed maps the scope for castle age aggression is gone.

Assuming you’re still talking about Arena, yes. Against almost all non-cavalry civs, they’ll have a greater chance of losing.

2 things. I’ve seen some people say Indians have the best eco bonus. Not even close

The best eco bonus is Vikings hands down. Or maybe burgundians if you play it right.

Second some people bagging on my boy the elephant archer. You guys dont know how to use it.

I plated a 4v4 once. People dropped. People started leaving at start till there was just me and this other guy from the other team. 1v1 in a 4v4 map with mass resources. He was mongols, me Indians. He castles up his whole side about 7- 8 castles, mangudai and hussar. I have hussars, camels and hand cannons,(later skirms) and bombards. It’s literally a stalemate and I can’t push into his bases because his mangudai and hussar could hold and his mangudai sniped the seige

You know what broke the line finally? When I added elephant archers. While hand cannon,skirm hussar and camels were easily repelled or defeated. Hussar,camel and elephant archers easily broke thru the line

Elephant archers can tank onager shots. They can beat back mangudai. They dont lose to mass hussar if you have some frontline. They are great on high resourse maps, post imp type games typically found on black forest and the like and long as you have something to deal with seige onagers. Maybe bombards or hussar. They are good in deathmatch. Even in 1v1 Arabia if you fully commit to them and are able to win with 1 big push.