Lessons to Learn

[marcoracosta205]

So im not gonna discuss with you in any matter but I would like to state something . and it’s just about the way of how making an argument

@Khansa5234

So by focusing so much on gameplay mechanics and ignoring everything else, you are denying 2/3 of the AOE fan base.

I truly don’t understand how you did build up this reply , I don’t understand the “argument” , your whole reply was “aoe gameplay was the important” and then proceeded to say its not as i understand.

@Khansa5234

In 1999, when you were playing mainly single player and campaign, how important was it that in the mongol campaign, playing against Persians or Mongols, that Mongols had an attack bonus against British.

No, you were playing to build up cities, train some units, and send them off to beat the enemy.

This is what I don’t get . You were talking about how important mechanics were and then : no.

So just in case I’m wrong , I’m going to make two different replies

First one , if you are talking about graphics , then you are completely wrong . Aoe has never been about graphics. Literally if they in 1997 they would make a trash game , A PURE TRASH GAME , with the best visuals of the decade , it would fail. Literally aoe1 became popular just because the gameplay , build up a city and make units to trash the oponent has always been the core mechanic , but you can’t deny aoe1 bring serious things to the table. The big true battles for example , or having a map with land and water at the same time.

In case you are saying that aoe never was something about gameplay then you are also wrong , because as I said in the other reply , even with the best graphics of the year if you have a soulless game that completely doesn’t work and haves a lot of bugs then don’t expect to have a successful game.

I hope I am truly wrong and you never meant any of these things.

@Khansa5234

This post is essentially like a promise that we expect to see many changes at launch thanks to our feedback.

Imagine all those people who buy the game and it turns out almost the same as the technical stress test with barely any changes.

As I understand , closed beta build was old , and when stress test arrived I did saw plenty of changes , the first one and more noticeable was water , literally in CB boats costed that much that only the AI afforded to make those , also in CB water was really … bad… , and in stress test water looked much better. Another change was some visuals , they looked a bit better.

Conclusion:

I don’t know what do you mean and I don’t understand what did you wrote because it seems you are talking of various themes at the same time lol

[marcoracosta205]

@Latulevieja

enough to know you have not played enough… theres no game with infinite deers,

Yeah , bu there is infinite farms , so technically we have infinite food right?

[howlingwolfpaw]

@marcoracosta205

@howlingwolfpaw

No crew on siege? (someone to fire it, not just reload)

I think this is pointless and just visual detail. This should not affect gameplay or even the game.

@howlingwolfpaw

Little focus on terrain bonus?

But there are , yo get more LOS uphill and less LOS in ground. Also knights can’t charge uphill

@howlingwolfpaw

No native alliance post?

No mercenary units?

This only a thing in aoe3 , is just not an aoe4 thing lol.

@howlingwolfpaw

Golden phantom vills and crew? and so much other golden and light effects

It’s funny , i play a lot aoe3 and aoe2 , and now seeing the buildings go up without other people helping to build is just wrong , it looks baaad .

Yellow villager are a good addition , this is just a clueless thing to complain about.

@howlingwolfpaw

Lack of innovation in just about everything.

In fact there is a lot of creativity, just wait to the campaign to see the full job

And the other things that you did say on your reply were really pointless to criticize aoe4 , aoe3 is not aoe4 and it won’t have the same core features obviously

There are countless visual details that could also be left out, the idea is a visual spectacle to make it interesting to watch. Crewless siege has been requested by many to help that immersion. Just because it is subjective does not mean its not worthy to be considered. If it is meaningless to others and meaningful to many then what does it hurt? as its not a game play performance issue.

Terrain bonuses could really be enhanced… with movement speed changed in river crossings or on muddy terrain, maybe rocky areas slow cavalry more, extra LOS is nice but it really should add a little range too. (like it does for walls) but to balance that, arrows would need ballistics.

Saying mercenaries and alliance post are only a AOE3 thing is a projection, because they could have easily been included… but it was just a lazy thing to not do it, because that means making dozens of new units which cost $$$ which is why AOE3 having included so much extra really shines.

The phantoms building buildings is not so bad… but when military units build rams, it makes no sense, and visually is distracting and not enhancing anything with it on siege reload. the animations are too flashy and disappear before you can even see what they are doing, its just extra clutter. Poorly implemented. remember your opinions on these things are also as subjective.

There are some new things like units on walls… and a few unit abilities. but to the game play it seems very basic

[howlingwolfpaw]

@howlingwolfpaw

Terrible building and unit scaling?

every age game ever

@howlingwolfpaw

No native alliance post?

doesn’t fit the time period or civs. this is not AoE3 or colonial.

@howlingwolfpaw

No mercenary units?

cool concept, but it’s an AoE3 thing that matches the deck system

@howlingwolfpaw

Weird counter system where units are just either heavy or light armored?

bruh. Do I even have to say it?
Every age game has a basic counter system
Cav < Spears
Archers < Cav
Etc

@howlingwolfpaw

Really bad water texture

From what I’ve heard I think they’re working on it, but also personal preference.

@howlingwolfpaw

Lack of innovation in just about everything.

Now that’s just not true. I understand criticism, but now you’re just arguing for the sake of the game being bad. Every game can improve, even I admit AoE4 is kinda lacking in a a lot of departments. This is just drama inciting.

@howlingwolfpaw

Machine gun arrows?

Idk didn’t really pay attention.

@howlingwolfpaw

ehh… lack of snare?

That’s one of AoE3’s complaints.

@howlingwolfpaw

I will miss the explorer duels for treasures in age 1.

Fair
[/quote]

There is nothing wrong about personal preferences… we are all here stating our own, including you. Does not make it right or wrong, but to let some DEVs get an idea on why this game is almost there but not really appealing to some.

Adding a crew member to push the thing has no real downsides

The scaling is actually pretty good in AOE3 and 2, some buildings are smaller than they should be sure, but at least the units look like they will fit in them. AOE4 tried to make it realistic but when they changed it just miniaturized the models and now looks like a down grade back to AOE1 style. The big buildings as we were shown at the beginning looked stunning.

Native post and even shipments can certainly be implemented… You have various vassal states within these empires that could provide resources and units (this was a large part on how armies were conscripted) every local could even have guilds on the map, that could provide bonuses (for instance one map may have a cobblers guild, and with it can train a type of unit from that local, and get increased unit speed,)

As for mercenaries, they were available as a building, units that were above par, but cost wise inefficient. Really no reason to think this should only be AOE3

There is certainly a lack of innovation, the game looks mostly like a copy of AOE2 with units on walls, and a few unit abilities. so much more could have been done.

Find a stream of arrows shooting out of a castle… they fire from one point like a machine gun… AOE2 had great arrow volleys, projectile impacts, etc…

I can get why people do not like snare, but here is the thing why its needed unless they make another change… there is just no reason a cav unit should have to stop his horse to take a swing (in mid air by the time the unit walks away) that horse should be able to keep up following, as the rider keeps swinging. No way would a unit walking be able to escape cavalry. so its silly that range units can reload while walking, but cav have to stop, swing, and then catch up to the units to take another swing. Now if it were done like that cav might be really too good, so snare is a happy medium, and helps counter units work, if a pikemen stabs a horse, it would be reasonable to think that horse would slow down.

[Khansa5234]

@Winter2643

My primary point was that things like siege operators really don’t do anything mechanically. It’s mostly a matter of subjectivety, so it’ll always upset one group and make another group content. Back to the siege crew example, what is a few dudes reloading a cannon going to change? I don’t dislike the decision but I also don’t like it. I’m neutral on the matter.

It really depends what part of the game you are coming from (if you are coming from an old AOE franchise). The game has always had a massive story telling side of it based on history. And so gameplay was always a way for people to be immersed in that story. Not the “oh yeh bro, let’s dominate these nooobs. With my awesome catapaults dodge”. You spent half the game building a city, an economy, or an empire, and then marching troops of an empire. Hence why I kind of find AOE II tournaments so silly with their palisade + house wwalling. It kills the whole fun look for me. But even the devs didn’t intend for that to happen.

Imagine you are playing the battle of colloden when the British troops used cannons to smash the freedom fighting highlanders in their big struggle against the British. Having siege that is manned gives the person behind the merciless cannon. Rather than ghostly cannons firing at people. Immersion means you get invested into the story being told. And often to make things as immersive as possible, you make it as close to realism as possible.

And this does a lot for it. Putting the man behind the machine.

And it doesn’t just have to look realistic to make it immersive, it should feel like it. Like how people find it weird that in AOE II the fire never hurts the building in any way. Because what you are seeing just doesn’t make sense.

Hence why people flying when a heavy projectile lands on them afdds to the realism and makes sense. Hence makes them able to associate with it better. Aka immersion.

It’s what people want to see when they play single player or campaign. Or when they go into scenario editor and use it to make stories and stuff.

Metal cannons to die like this

Not poof into tiny wooden splinters like this

And wooden siege or tall towers to collapse like this

As a game designer, you are also an artist. These things tell the player how much you thought about everything.

@Winter2643

I just wanted to point out that the majority of the things people criticize are much less important than others. Like zoom level, glitchiness, assymetry, etc.

Again this is depending on which aspect of AOE you are talking about.

Imagine playing an English campaign and then the French campaign and not having the feeling of playing two different campaigns because the civs look exactly the same. This was a major problem in AOE II. AOE II DE actually addresses this very well with the addition of the new civs. Adding the Burgundian civ made a massive difference to the Joan of Arc campaign. Made me want to play it over and over.

And zoom level again doesn’t affect competitive players. But when you are building a city and you want to plan out your walls and boundaries, you need the zoom level otherwise it’s a whole frustration of scrolling everywhere.

Finding the ally market and just scrolling through the base was the most frustrating thing for me that I felt like dropping the game then and there.
Something easily solved by zooming out. Never had this problem in any other age game after DE expansion. AoM let’s you zoom out enough so same with that. Maybe because then the Titans would be off screen which I guess some here wouldnt care lol.

As AOE caters for all different people, you will find people who have priorities that you don’t have. Doesn’t make it irrelevant. And as Relic promised to cater to people playing for different reasons, it makes no sense that all of their adjustment is geared towards competitive play.

@Winter2643

To be honest, I really don’t know how it’s going to turn out. Most people either say it’s going to succeed or not, but I’m unsure. I wouldn’t doubt that something like that would happen though. I liked the game in both betas, but they were lacking in several departments. All I can do is hope.

I also don’t know. And I definitely won’t be judging by immediate post launch. I will see how this game goes over the few months of launch. Whether it follows the same up then down trend of AOE II DE or stays up. I definitely don’t expect it to flop on release that’s one thing for sure.

@Winter2643

Btw nicely formatted post

Lol being on phone makes it so hard so I don’t know if this was sarcastic haha but thanks anyways

@marcoracosta205

So im not gonna discuss with you in any matter

When someone starts off with this then I lose interest in replying

[marcoracosta205]

@howlingwolfpaw

Saying mercenaries and alliance post are only a AOE3 thing is a projection, because they could have easily been included…

Sorry but I think it wouldn’t fit. I would like to have pirates though , imagine if you could convert a boat to yours by sending pirates to another boat . (But it wouldn’t fit I think , because the era on this game is ambiented)

I knew that your post was only a opinion , that’s why I did only reply to certain things that were interesting .

[marcoracosta205]

Long post though . The only thing that I did said is that maybe some (,) and some ( . ) could be fantastic to express your self and making an argument understandable, because you did had a lot of things that are merged and it doesn’t makes sense

[Khansa5234]

Yes, sorry about that. Simply because when I am typing on mobile, I actually can’t see what I’m typing. It just all looks like this

[Winter2643]

@Winter2643

I just wanted to point out that the majority of the things people criticize are much less important than others. Like zoom level, glitchiness, assymetry, etc.

I meant that zoom level, glitchiest, and asymmetry were more important, sorry if I worded that strange.

@Khansa5234

Lol being on phone makes it so hard so I don’t know if this was sarcastic haha but thanks anyways

phone gang

@Khansa5234

Imagine you are playing the battle of colloden when the British troops used cannons to smash the freedom fighting highlanders in their big struggle against the British. Having siege that is manned gives the person behind the merciless cannon. Rather than ghostly cannons firing at people. Immersion means you get invested into the story being told. And often to make things as immersive as possible, you make it as close to realism as possible.

Makes sense, and I do see why people would prefer it. Especially with that analogy. I think that it isn’t the most important thing, but it’d be nice to have operators somewhere down the line. The devs have recently been listening to our feedback, so I hope they do the same (or more) changes. I really love the game, and I want to keep loving it. For the sake of the franchise.

@Khansa5234

Not poof into tiny wooden splinters like this

I 100% agree that they should change the death animation. It looks like a cartoon. Even if an ACTUAL homing missile hit the thing, it would just be scorched. In no situation should it just poof like that. I don’t know why they chose that death animation at all.

[AndyPXIII]

https://i.gyazo.com/e33821324bad9400057b8f2c3dba27f6.gif(image larger than 3 MB)

https://i.gyazo.com/da9f1a43ef745d0deb2b8032749e1eee.gif(image larger than 3 MB)

[Khansa5234]

Although that’s a bit too cartoony for my liking, I love the animation

[AndyPXIII]

Fun fact: the Clinicus falling into his cart is a little throwback to Biff falling into a cart of manure in Back to the Future Part 3.

[Khansa5234]

@Winter2643

I 100% agree that they should change the death animation. It looks like a cartoon. Even if an ACTUAL homing missile hit the thing, it would just be scorched. In no situation should it just poof like that. I don’t know why they chose that death animation at all.

Honestly IMO, it’s pure disgusting. Watching a siege tower poof into a Tiny splinter ball like that. Or a siege ram that you’d expect to have people in it.

I don’t think there’s a single game, flop or successful that would do something so bad and think it was good.

[AndyPXIII]

I like the AoE4 animations myself.

[Khansa5234]

Lol you mean metal exploding to wood or the Houdini Ram?

[Winter2643]

@howlingwolfpaw

Adding a crew member to push the thing has no real downsides

I agree. My point is really that it shouldn’t be the top arguement whatsoever. From what @Khansa5234 said makes me agree even more with the implementation. I hope they change it post-launch.

@howlingwolfpaw

The scaling is actually pretty good in AOE3 and 2, some buildings are smaller than they should be sure, but at least the units look like they will fit in them. AOE4 tried to make it realistic but when they changed it just miniaturized the models and now looks like a down grade back to AOE1 style. The big buildings as we were shown at the beginning looked stunning.

No age game has particularly good scaling, but some better than others. AoE4 has probably the best-scaled walls but the units are off.

@howlingwolfpaw

Native post and even shipments can certainly be implemented… You have various vassal states within these empires that could provide resources and units (this was a large part on how armies were conscripted) every local could even have guilds on the map, that could provide bonuses (for instance one map may have a cobblers guild, and with it can train a type of unit from that local, and get increased unit speed,)

One of the main complaints about the game is the whole deck thing. I personally live AoE3, but I don’t. Think the native posts match the whole gameplay style. Maybe they could implement it according to the region or something…? Like on dry Arabia you can recruit Mamelukes or something.

For home city stuff, I do love the customization. But not all civilizations had vassals, and it wouldn’t make sense for some of them. The English at the time were already divided into their own kingdoms fighting amongst each other. For the HRE it would make sense though.

@howlingwolfpaw

As for mercenaries, they were available as a building, units that were above par, but cost wise inefficient. Really no reason to think this should only be AOE3

Mercenaries make sense. They do. The problem once again is the historical accuracy and the decks. Mercenaries mostly come from shipments, which I’ve already discussed. But if they had a building for them it might work. I’d say that the building should be exclusive to just one faction. For example, the HRE could have said building and recruit Swiss Pikes or Austrian Bombards.

As for historical accuracy, not all of the civs in the roster used mercenaries extensively.

@howlingwolfpaw

There is certainly a lack of innovation, the game looks mostly like a copy of AOE2 with units on walls, and a few unit abilities. so much more could have been done.

More could have been done. I agree. It isn’t completely ridden of innovation though. Lacking in many departments, but I hope they improve post-launch. I would be fine if they delayed to take as much time as they need, but I doubt they will.

@howlingwolfpaw

Find a stream of arrows shooting out of a castle… they fire from one point like a machine gun… AOE2 had great arrow volleys, projectile impacts, etc…

Why does everyone who non-constructively criticizes the game do that weird trail off thing where they end with a "…
"? I see it everywhere.

@howlingwolfpaw

implemented…

@howlingwolfpaw

change…

@howlingwolfpaw

etc…

@howlingwolfpaw

gun…

Anyways back to the given point. I’m not going to quote several people and fill up their notifications.

@howlingwolfpaw

I can get why people do not like snare, but here is the thing why its needed unless they make another change… there is just no reason a cav unit should have to stop his horse to take a swing (in mid air by the time the unit walks away) that horse should be able to keep up following, as the rider keeps swinging. No way would a unit walking be able to escape cavalry. so its silly that range units can reload while walking, but cav have to stop, swing, and then catch up to the units to take another swing. Now if it were done like that cav might be really too good, so snare is a happy medium, and helps counter units work, if a pikemen stabs a horse, it would be reasonable to think that horse would slow down.

I like the snare, but I don’t want to speak about myself. Realistically I think the only snare should be against ranged units. If the gun troops get hit while reloading they should be stunned. It makes sense but I’ve seen people complaining about snare a lot. Even a few of my own friends quit AoE3 purely because of it. I think it makes ranged units less viable and therefore more balanced. Still, I don’t think it could help what people think of the game. For competitive players it’s less about realism and more about mechanics.

Before I end this (practically an essay) post, I’d like to clarify I have nothing against you or anyone else because of your opinions. I value everyone’s opinion, but I am willing to debate civilly on topics. Thank you for presenting what you wanted to say.

Edit: Forgive me for any spelling or grammar mistakes. English is not my first language. My parents taught me only Gaeilge when I was young, and I ended up learning English some time around late high school.

[marcoracosta205]

Lol hahahaha , I understand you now lmao

[StatedOregon5]

Most of what you said its a matter of personal preference.
My friends and I have been playing aoe3 for years and the game is really fun to play.
However a lot of them including me will switch to aoe4 because we liked the gameplay and the mechanics of the aoe4 a lot more, also it feels a lot more balanced than aoe3.
However quite a few of them will remain to 3 because they didn’t like the gameplay and things that you mentioned, which is totally understandable.

[Winter2643]

@StatedOregon5

also it feels a lot more balanced than aoe3.

That’s not what I’d exactly call a selling point there.

While I think I’ll be switching over to AoE4 (and I love the game so far) I don’t think balancing is what should be noted. All games will always have balancing issues, especially one that just releases. Only reason I can think of that would make it seem balanced right now is that people haven’t developed in-depth strategies yet.

But hey, great game so far. Lots to improve on, but I’ll be there for the whole ride. Even if I dislike this game and prefer another Age game, I’ll still stay to it. The only way to improve a game is with constructive criticism.

[howlingwolfpaw]

As well anyone’s opinion to like things as they are is a personal preference.

But it does not matter Microsoft does no apparently care as many of these points are well known to them.