Let's talk about coffee

So the new coffee trade upgrade for dutch no longer gives a movement speed penalty, but instead lowers bank HP.
While before it was somewhat usable in some match ups, now it did a complete flip and it is utterly broken in any match up. The 2 extra banks, combined with envoys being able to build banks is just incredibly strong and very difficult to punish. And it allows dutch to spam an insane amount of units in age3 and age4.

I suggest giving a cost to coffee trade upgrade, somewhere maybe 750W or something. It has to have some degree of cost, it now has none.

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Isn’t a bank worth like 4 villagers? So 5 banks is worth 20 and 7 worth 28. Max villagers is 50(+20 from banks) with a card you can get equivalent of 78. Most civs can get 99 without a card and then late game instead of coffee card send refrigeration or royal mint and increase vills on those resource by 25% or eco theory and make 99 villagers worth another 9.9 villagers.

Compare max vill eco +1 card and dutch get equivalent of 78 and other civ like 109. All the card does is better allow dutch to equal other civs eco in the very late game like in imperial if you were to send coffee card plus the 2 extra bank cards. Also worth noting that dutch would need to send coffee card plus 2 other bank cards just to get near a normal civs villager eco and if that civ also sent royal mint, refrigeration and eco theory they’d be way ahead. Then there’s the cost of the banks themselves being 700 resources for equivalent of 4 villagers. Other civs also have other bonuses like ability to have settler wagons and villagers which just completely surpasses dutch eco.

Nice try but no.
Dutch economy is completely broken now and makes ottomans look like a squirt gun.

You get 60 villagers and 9 banks quite easily, thats 96 pop worth of eco taking only 60 pop, allowing you a 40% bigger army while sacrificing just 4% of your eco or so. Who on earth wouldn’t take that trade?

This was previously only possible in imperial age. But coffee trade allows you to get the imperial age bonus of +2 banks for free. And before you say anything about the church card, it is useful cause the other unit shipments are also very powerful and allow you to survive the pressure until you get your 9 banks.

Imperial age dutch is essentially a meme now.

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Not trying anything, I don’t ever play dutch.
It’s important to distinguish what game mode you are talking about, but either way dutch maintains a well below average win rate in both 1v1 and treaty.

I play only 1v1 ranked so for that nobody is sending the age 1 cards that give extra banks or increase villagers build limits unless they’re like below 1k elo as it slows tempo too much and just is almost never worth doing. So in competitive 1v1 you are always limited to 50 villagers and normally 5 banks so a grand total of 70v eco. Now you have the option of another 2 banks if fortress age drags on and you can justify sending the church card and investing another 1400 resources for 8 additional vills worth of eco. Most games this won’t be worth doing as you already have 5 banks which is enough eco to mass units effectively. Comparatively other civs can just hit age 3 and send eight villagers and eclipse your extra 2 banks which you just sent a card and spent 1400 res on.

For most games 7 banks is far too much investment at the expense of tempo and all this change really does is stops dutch falling off as fast by mid fortress age as they can use this card to add a bit more eco should the game drag on without hindering all of their military with a speed penalty.

Disclaimer: I think this was probably a bit of an overbuff but I’ll want data to confirm my suspicion.

The reason banks remain rather balanced and have since 2005 is that they burn out your hunts quite rapidly and cost much more than villagers do, at least initially. They are solid economic investment and generally dutch is a great civ but its not like building banks at the 10 or 12 minute mark is usually wise. Its a big amount of res to sink into eco, especially since you’ve likely used up your wood shipments at this point.

What if each Bank needs to use 2 pop?

By the way, I would like to change all cards and technologies that increase the build limit to increase the trickle, except 1 Bank Wagon card which could also give +1 limit to increase it from 5 to 6. I don’t like that Banks are such a massive presence, even more so than Mills, Estates, and military buildings.

eh after playing more with the dutch east india company start I find it to be very meh on the account that its very slow and very easy to punish

In order to do this start, you have to open with a TP (tried doing it in transition and you get the second card too late) so you have to chop 100 woord or get lucky with treasures and that slows down your age up quite a bit.

Its might be ok as a greed option against other greed civ but its not that good overall, you are more open to be pushined by any agressive play.

So coffee trade isnt changing that cause the coffee trade change was removing a nerf to the card, so its not like even if you add back the restriction you cant go for it.

And like @dansil92 say its a massive food drain and also drains up 2 shipments ( you need 700 - 600 wood shipment to even build first 5 banks even before getting coffee trade and then getting the shipment to unlock it)

To put this into perspective, in a build where you age up with 400 wood and then send 700 w and 600 wood to spam the banks, assuming you already built a bank in transition to so you have 4 left to build, you will have 510 wood left over, which makes it so that you can build 1 more bank (150 for the church so you have 360 left over) so its hardly worth it.

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This is really my point, summarized, absolutely. Its not that the card is bad, in fact its amazing now, but in a 1v1 its not going to likely pay off at any point early BUT it does add an option in industrial (where you definitely want the card for the units anyways) to throw down 2 more banks. I could also see it worthwhile in late age 3. I can’t see it being used in standard builds with any frequency in order to get 7 banks early.

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Yeah late age 3 I think its where it has best value since the only other eco card it competes with is refrigeration

In age 4 I think would rather send tulip speculation and then the factories first before getting coffee trade

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They have to make bank cost 350 wood, 350 coin, instead of food. It makes sense you need initial money investment to be able to open a bank. Why does opening a bank cost food?

My issue with the change is that the double edge effect is not double anymore. Its like changing Solingen steel speed nerf to nerf Houses HPs, that would be massive.

About economy, civs shouldnt get 99v equivalent eco with less villagers. All of them are overtuned in treaty mode for this reason.

Well, what about make “-10 limit for Settlers” from 50 to 40 or 30 (in theory is explained by the fact that others 10 or 20 Settlers temporarily go to relax with coffee)

Let’s not go out overboard.

It should just be a little harsher with the hit points reduction. Make it 25-30% and it would be more of a trade off.

I would go with lesser pop limit, not the same reduction than the villager reduction

-10 or 15% Building hp. I think that would be sufficient.