Let's talk about Germany

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Germany is a solid civilization, but I don’t think that much to receive a nerf, it has always been like that, during several patches they have been given new cards to support variables or certain strategies, but nothing really improves their standard build, they are just variables or some mini improvements in things that were a bit necessary but it’s not a big deal either, such as the mercenary camp card helped Germany to build with a mercenary, but it’s not a big deal either, it’s just a support for that strategy, only mercenary-type units are created faster and unlock some, the dripping of gold with the 3 camps is almost unnoticed, almost all the new cards are like this, support style for a specific strategy but nothing broken only to make very strategies occasional, his standard build hasn’t benefited at all at all. Only if the game extends to age 4, it improves the uhlan’s armor by 5% which is a very good thing, but I wouldn’t call it broken since the uhlan in late game was really a bit of trash because it aged very badly in life to have 2 population but I wouldn’t consider it bad either since it has a lot of damage but if it focuses well with counter units it dies too easy.

I do not think it is valid as a point to say that Germany cannot be rushed, it is totally false, all civilizations will practically have something special including their bonus, building, unique units in their favor to play defensively satisfactorily, surely it has happened to all of us or at least we have seen as a german sending 8 crossbowmen + 2 uhlans + militia can easily remove someone from their base in an initial rush. As we can also say that India cannot be rushed because it puts the agra in Base, it can counter attack with double militia, or say that the Netherlands locks itself in with banks and can get guerrillas at age 2, is like saying that those civilizations cannot be rushed Of course it will not be easy to rush it but they also have their weak points of course, for example Germany does not age very quickly a German who grazes food well creates the villagers on time and investigates hunting dogs in the market as good weather will achieve click on the button to age at minute 3:05 being very optimistic that it is a bit late compared to the other civilizations, it does not have musketeers, it can only choose as light infantry at age 2 crossbowmen which in the current meta is very bad If the German is besieged by houses, you are really complicating the game.

Although it is true that many civilizations have been nerfed and Germany is the only one that has not really received a significant nerf at the release of the Definitive edition, so it could be that it is really strong today but looking at the statistics confirm the contrary because has a winrate very close to 50% in almost all (elos)

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after having played against Germany in various ways I say that this civi needs to be nerfed at age 3 2 have less ulan by cards at age 2 all cards of 1 ulan and at age 3 2 ulan

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No. Just, no.

Do you know why nothing needs to change?

Because:
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They have a win rate of exactly 50% (within 60 matches over a year of data and 20k games played). The civ is balanced. Germany has powerful shipments, yes, but it is an incredibly technical civ that suffers from the lack of musketeers. It’s about learning to counter cav raids, not demanding that a well-balanced and unique bonus that has been in the game since 2005 be removed or nerfed to the point of irrelevance.

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need nerf … 20 caracteres

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germany is a civ that feels really trash when i play it and oppressively strong when I face against it. I think its balanced, I just hate it

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The play style of Germany hasn’t really changed at all in the game’s existance, its tricks are known.

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The only thing I would change is to remove the switch of WW to riders at stables

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Germany has 53% winratio right now, it’s also not the ideal approach to compare different patches when the game balance is changing each patch by a lot. Germany has been buffed in a unnecessary amount recently, similar to Italy buffs few patches ago.

For reference, I am going to post winratio of 2 top elo on the ladder, to see how clearly game breaking Germany is. Both of the players are on top elo.

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As can be seen, 56% Winratio goes up to 70% and 83% for both players. Germany objectively has been the most overperforming civ in this patch like Italy, India 2 patches ago, the right approach should be how it would be put into a balanced spot.

Brits get 5 villagers shipment removed, while Germany has 6 villagers 2 uhlans shipment with the game breaking civ bonus that scale each age. Also Germany has one of the balance breaking late game buffs now I hope it will finally be balanced in the next patch.

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that just prove they play well the civ…

Let’s look with you for exemple

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Does that mean Brit and Port are absolutely broken ? after all you have 80% winrate with both of these civ

Lets look at perez russia

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Does that mean Russia is broken too ? 73% winrate …

You see what i mean ? It’s prove nothing…

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That doesn’t prove anything, both Germany and France are played almost the same way, if this much of close playstyle civs have that much of a different winrate, it’s obviously proving the balance concern to do with Germany overperforming. Many unbiased players agree with how unjustified and scaling civ bonus Germany has. The charts you post don’t compare winrate to similar style civs players play, thus it’s not a right approach to compare.

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are you afraid that nerf Germany ? this civi in the ELO 1200 1600 is complicated to fight against, remember that not always people with this rank play ranked most make casual rooms to play with known people or with similar ranks not and because the room is in casual that people do not take the game seriously, I play with my clan in casual rooms and we take the game more seriously than in a ranked game

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the problem of Germany and only the cards combined s with free ulan which ends up being a snowball at every age, and cards of mercenaries of age 3 for example 9 black raiders and 12 jeagers with practically imperial statistic.

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Completely agree,Germany is not only a balance concern in mid elo, but also in high level elo.

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espanha vs alemanha vitor vs bruno.age3Yrec (7.0 MB)

just see this my trash game vs germany

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here’s the thing, win rate is also not a great metric. winning more means your elo will go up until you’re around 50% again. the only real way would be to track if people’s elo levels go up or down after using a civ consistently after a patch

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I watched this game and am in your range and you push with falc rod into BR and loose cause rods get kited. Aging up with 4 huss to snare or push villagers would have done better, also the falcs dont get houses down. needed some skirm or cav to help the rods connect with BR. You also send 7rods first to slow down eco/tempo a bit and could have just tower FF’d as unless germany was pushing there was little he could do with good herding to TC/1tower.

a more classic musk or skirm core or getting the rod lancer combos rolling faster would have won this outright, also aging with 4 huss to again keep him off resources or allow rods to connect easier would have gone a far way

As is the rec doesnt show germany as op. At our level, its usually civs that are easier to play that are higher rated in win % and elo inflation. Its why india, otto, currently usa do much better than france or germany in metrics. Your spain had plenty of ways to victory (with 2tc and germany going mercs, could have gone age3 boom and or FI and beat them there)

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said the same thing in an internal group that I participate, thanks for the tips

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If I were to nerf (leaving aside if it’s actually required for the moment) Germany there are two ways I’d consider.

  1. The return of 180hp Uhlan. It was done before by ESOC (maybe add +5%hp to the age 4 Uhlan combat card to compensate). Keep in mind with the +5 armor from the Royal Guard this might not be so bad.

  2. Small nerfs to some of the Merc builds. I liked @coffeeco01 idea of moving Pandours to age 4. And some small nerfs to the stats of some merc units while also slightly reducing their cost could also help.

I do tend to feel that Germany is a little over tuned at the moment. But as a general rule nerfs should be small and done incrementally over time.

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I don’t have the motivation to argue about everything in this thread, but I’ll reply to breeze at least, since he’s posting my stats.

First of all, I think it’s fair to say many people consider me to be the best German player around, it’s been my main civ (or one of my main civs) at top level for easily 5 years. And for the record that includes times when germany was below average as well, I’ve just always played the civ and been successful with it, on ladder and in tourneys. So what do you expect my German winrate to mean? Especially as I’m quite inactive currently, and basically only play Germany on ladder, as a comfort pick.

Secondly, you’re using a sample of what, 100 games total? Come on dude, you’re even using numbers (“56%”) gathered on less than 10 French games. That’s not how stats work.
On a side note, claiming that “both Germany and France are played almost the same way” is just being ignorant. The civs play very differently except maybe in a few match ups. Since you’re using my games as a reference, feel free to check how I play both of those civs in the many tournaments I’ve participated in, and you’ll see you’re not making sense.

And now, even if we do look at these flawed stats:

As can be seen, 56% Winratio goes up to 70% and 83% for both players. Germany objectively has been the most overperforming civ in this patch like Italy, India 2 patches ago, the right approach should be how it would be put into a balanced spot.

It’s pretty funny because I actually have a global winrate of 83%…

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So congrats, you just showed that I win just as much with germany as with other civs.
By the way, randomly adding “objectively” in your sentence doesn’t actually make your statement more objective.

Germany has 53% winratio right now

According to your stats, Spain has 54%, should we nerf it? And Malta, which you used to called lame when I played it, has only 46%, do we need to revert their nerfs?
Winrates across all skill levels have never been an accurate way to rate a civ.

Brits get 5 villagers shipment removed, while Germany has 6 villagers 2 uhlans shipment with the game breaking civ bonus that scale each age.

I’m sure you’re aware 3 SW have been that way since 2005 or something? Like what point are you trying to make here? The civ is and has always been balanced around it, why would it become a problem now?
And for the record, yes removing 5v from brits is dumb, but I’m not sure how that’s relevant to this topic.

Also Germany has one of the balance breaking late game buffs now I hope it will finally be balanced in the next patch.

The royal guard upgrades barely ever matter in 1v1 supremacy, a minority of games go to industrial, especially German games. And once in industrial, getting those upgrades is a huge investment. I don’t know when was the last time I’ve seen someone tech guard skirms as Germany in a high level game, except against Italy because it forced lategame automatically (and that civ was absurd anyway).
And even if you do get it, big deal. You now get -0.25% ROF, which equates to about +8% attack, instead of +10% HP. Yes the ROF does scale on current attack so it’s worth a bit more than 10% at the end of the day, but it’s not like it’s incredibly better either. Again, adding “balance breaking” doesn’t actually make it balance breaking, it’s just words you’re randomly throwing in.

But hey, you know what? Just take it away. Give the skirms their 10% HP back, or whatever other equivalent buff instead. It literally doesn’t matter, so I really don’t mind either way.

Germany has been buffed in a unnecessary amount recently, similar to Italy buffs few patches ago.

Are you seriously comparing these 2 civs? How do you expect to be taken seriously? Italy was literally banned from all recent tourneys and showmatches and everyone was getting sick of it. The civ was a joke, probably the most broken we’ve had on DE. Just ask any good player about it. It’s just you pretending the opposite, because you lamed the civ 100% of your ladder games for months, lol.

Many unbiased players agree with how unjustified and scaling civ bonus Germany has.

Gotta love that rhethoric really. Who are these “many unbiased players”? And who are the other “biased players”? This is a terrible way to argue. And it’s funny because you’ve always hated Germany and called it OP many times, when there was a consensus it wasn’t, isn’t that what one would called biased?
And if you wanna play that game, just check the likes in this very thread and you’ll see who people are agreeing with.

Anyway, I’ve already typed more than I wanted to. Just to conclude:

  1. You’re just using flawed numbers to pretend you’re relying on stats. And randomly throwing in words to pretend your opinion is the objective truth. That’s essentially all there is to it.
  2. For the record I’m not even saying Germany is bad. Maybe it’s a bit too strong, idk. What I’m saying is that it’s definitely not OP since the civ is essentially unchanged, and that you’re definitely not proving anything in this thread.
  3. As I’ve already offered you, we can play a showmatch where you play only Germany, while I play 1 different civ (excluding Germany) each game. Should be an easy way for the #1 player to support his claims, right?
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France and Germany are completely played on the same sense, both civilisations used to end up in age 3 most of the time, with the recent buffs Germany leads age 4 too as well, so it’s quite reasonable to compare these 2 civs and how the win ratio changes, maybe you could explain why it’s the case for all players that Germany win rate suddenly increases in the ones that also plays France?

Stats are not flawed as you claimed, it’s not right approach to mislead, anybody can go to the website and check it out.

If we look at your stats, you only win in that % with Germany, at least that’s what the stats say. Which makes it even more clear that Germany is an overperforming civilisation.

Again, It’s not my stats, don’t understand what is the point of making it personal, anybody can access to these. Italy also had barely reached 50% and recently getting 20 nerfs in just 2 patches, stats have never been the only part to rely on why Germany has always been an overperforming civilisation in Aoe3.

Again, It doesn’t Justify 3 SW 2 uhlans shipment being a reasonable one, just for reference Germany gets same economy as brits while having more units and better tempo for the entire game, I don’t think there is any reasonable sense justifying a 6 villagers 2 uhlans shipment at any extend.

German Skirmishers are performing much better and I am glad you also agree with reverting it, which would be the best approach as it’s currently overperforming.

It’s not a right approach to make it personal this way, doesn’t help to balance discussion in this topic. For the last time I will answer.
It’s literally the same, Germany has been a sleeper S tier civlisation because there used to be India, Italy, Malta, China, Ethiopia, Ottoman and so on, same as Italy was already a sleeper S tier civ before the buffs as well, as Germany is.

Again, It’s fine to pretend an overperforming civilisation to be normal on the ladder, but it doesn’t change the fact that Germany is the most broken civlisation in the game right now, you are calling names for playing one civ, meanwhile playing almost only Germany on the ladder for months is just an ironic but that’s a side note.

Again, both numbers and competition proves that Germany is broken, there is nothing to take it personal, you can play other civilisations as good, don’t think there is much need to rely on playing completely Germany.

This statement alone makes all the points invalid in this topic, If you are not even sure which state Germany is, why picking on it this hard to claim it’s not a balance concern? which is false btw.

You are a Germany main player for years and no matter the advantages you will find ways that fit your playstyle to counter it meanwhile I haven’t played Germany in years actively, even if I play it now, what does it prove? Same as if you would play Italy to prove it’s a balance concern? You would still lose and it wouldn’t prove that Italy on march patch was fine.

I don’t think this forums stand for ego fitting of one player to other rather than giving balance thoughts from players, I have never mentioned your name. If you think Germany is average, you could provide your statement on it instead of making the post mostly personal rather than discussing about Germany, and again, then you claim that Germany could be too strong. It’s just not looking any reasonable at any extend.

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