Re abierto, perdón las molestias
Hello. Try to respect the Code of Conduct (this includes not publicly questioning the moderation, there are other ways to do this, such as an e-mail to support).
The thread and the intense discussion are on the right track. I couldn’t say if Germany needs a mininerf or not. I still remember when uhlans had 180 hp in an ESO-C patch in the old game and already 7 uhlans could never win against 5 hussars.
I understand that, from my point of view, Germany is somewhat above average but perhaps on the border of not being nerfed.
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The problem with nerfing Germany is that their early game is very mechanically intensive. While the bonus uhlans are cool, you need to be careful not to get supply locked, which happens very easily compared to literally every other civ. Yes, there’s a card to help with that, but that’s again a decision you need to make that others don’t. Also, have you had your houses sniped as Germany? Very annoying and effective.
Then there’s the lack of muskets which really makes it painful in the early game. Uhlans are very bad against other cavs, so you need pikes. Pikes get picked up easily by muskets, so you need xbows. Xbows get wrecked by cav. So you can see a hc + musket push is very difficult for Germany to contain. All of these ofc cost wood, which brings up the supply lock problem.
Coming to the bonus uhlans - yeah no worries for a musket civ. That’s basically most civs except native Americans. But those generally have very good pikemen or early HC. The uhlans in age2 are more of an annoyance than anything else. You know they will suck in direct combat, and you know they will come off from your eco or try to flank your LI. Predictable.
Yes, Germany likes to FF. But you know they will, because FF sort of kinda fixes all their problems to some extent, so you can plan your game around that.
Germany may be strong, but it is predictable. It’s not like ottos that have like 865589753125899 ways to open in any match up. That’s really going to roof your winrate eventually.
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3sw to 2sw+1settler, the same for every age.
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Don’t think 3sw to 2sw+1 settler could fix the all objectively overperforming Germany problems. There needs to be more changes to make sure civilisation is finally in a balanced spot again. Right now it’s not possible to beat Germany in any age, above any other civilisation else.
decrease -1 ulan per card and -1mercenaries per card age 2 age 3 and buff xp 10%
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No.
The code of conduct doesn’t state that at all.
I think it would be good for you to look the forum code of conduct before making certain affirmations.
“Don’t discuss moderator actions in the forums. Should you have a specific concern, please contact Support at Age of Empires Support.”
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Oh you mean this code of conduct?
The same code of conduct that has not one line about mods being above criticism?
I did, funny huh? I’d be remiss to haven’t done so, but sadly my matters involve a lot of very accurate and specific wording.
The only line that could be misconstrued in a way is either this line.
“Create posts to specific members of the staff. The moderators and developers read all the posts and reply accordingly.”
Or more accurately this line:
" Discuss moderator actions in the forums. Should you have a specific concern, please contact Support at Age of Empires Support."
Which however is questionable since the moderator enforced their power only after he was losing a debate he initiated as a forum goer. Hence not actually being a moderator in that sense.
Excercising their power, arguably without any controll on the matter in a way that is questionable.
By all means, by the letter you can claim to be right. It still is however questionable behaviour.
Because there’s also a bit about Moderators being required to follow the rules too, arguably for their power even more so, and in the do section there’s also quite specific points to be made.
“Treat all forum members with courtesy and respect.” Which an abuse of power is the most disrespecting thing you could do in a forum.
If it is considered that the moderator has not fulfilled his function well, this is not the place to discuss it, the mail is sent and those who administer the forum will decide.
Greetings.
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That is fair.
Many thanks.
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Nerfing the core of a civ that’s been unchanged since 2005 is a bad idea. They’ve been trying it with brits and still haven’t figured it out.
The only thing that could be considered a somewhat direct buff to Germany is native TPs generating xp, which makes it slightly easier to play on some maps.
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This doesn’t work at the top of the ladder. The best players will never level off, that’s why they are the best. Using the win rate of the top 10 players is a terrible way to balance things.
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Fair suggestion, I think it’s better to change uhlan bonus than uhlan stats, would be a better approach.
I agree, it would be better to balance Germany without uhlan hp getting nerfed, that’s why an exp penalty change and fix to 6 vills 2 uhlans shipment is crucial.
I think Germany have always been in a situation where they are “above average” and maybe they should even get a very very light nerf, but since it’s something insignificant I think it’s better not to touch anything and watch the balance of others civilizations.
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Germany was always above average, but the main point was it had multiple unfavourable Match Ups which made Germany getting hard time to deal against. Most of those civilisations recieved big amount of nerfs while Germany has never been nerfed, that improved Germany’s place to top 1 already, and the last buffs which improved Germany age 4 hard made it straight broken. Hausa has a chance to pressure Germany in the commerce age, rest civilisations straight lose against Germany in age 2, and age 3 is most of the time the same scenario that’s why it should be considered to put Germany into a fixed spot where other civilisations can also stand chance to play against I think.
What are the specific match ups that were bad but now are good for germany ? how is france, spain, lakota, aztec, haude, and USA unable to win now that they got +1 vet cuir eq in industrial or the extra 5% on the RG uhlans? How are the eq match ups of brits, italy, mexico, china civs that were eq or slightly disadvantaged become strongly disfavored? And How did these civs get nerfed last patch to make the above “undoable” because of the age 4 card? Was it other nerfs or this german card specfically? What are the other factors like maps (safe stagecoaches, water etc) effecting this?
I hear mostly calls to nerf based purely on preference reasons, not good stats not solid arguments or reqs proving the alleged “op” items working without counter. If german age4 is now “busted” but yet Germany falls off in 3 if someone pressures in age3 (via booming or also FF) is it op if people are choosing to play passive? Is a meta thats been stuck towards FI’s now being punished and players not evolving, or is Germany demonstrably able to beat every age? I havent seen any examples provided from recent patch games.
So far, ive seen mostly vague examples and people posting emotional responses o, but there’s been little objective evidence. The win rates for germany, outside of 1900+ where Germany has less than 200 games (or 100 in sunbros better controlled one that excludes 100+ elo gap games) are not top, or close to top. across elo. Streams are not filled with germany smashing in the level an “s tier broken civ” would a la salami forts. I’m not a pro, but i have not seen anything that would upturn 15 years of germany’s established role as competitive but not op civ. I think for a thread like this to be productive, where bold claims are being made, should have actual recs or links to games, of say Germany smashing spain FFs trivally via these new mechanics. As many have pointed out, while germany additions werent needed from a balance perspective they dont appear to have pushed germany over the threshold of broken.
I would encourage people who are feeling germany is op to demonstrate it, as that would allow a more productive conversation. or we just the usual forum thing of argue pointlessly, which ive been guilty of too so dont let me get in the way anymore XD
ps- (age)4 is censored in this forum maximum keks
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Germany vs India, Lakota, China, Ethiopia, Malta used to be not going well for Germany, now all of those civilisations recieved huge amount of nerfs. Let’s go from one by one
India used to have solid rajputs + azaps + 4 sowar + 3 deli timing that would be extremely hard for Germany to deal against, right now azaps no longer arrive fast, number is reduced by 1, rajput attack has been nerfed by 2 and sepoy melee is already nerfed. These all help Germany to easily counter India right now.
Lakota used to have a great tempo and having one of the best cav start in the game would allow the civilisation to compete with Germany uhlans much easier compared to other civilisations in age 2 as well as age 3 lakota army would just be much stronger back in the day when lakota had 5 villagers shipment, right now Lakota is a civilisation that is generally considered B or C tier, and is far from being a counter to Germany.
China few patches ago would be able to survive Germany push before the china blockhouse nerfs and follow up with a hard to deal army for Germany, War wagons are great units, but can’t hit and run with them which helps China army even more with ranged meteors, strong swordsman and skirmishers with great bonuses, right now as Germany you can go for tower rush almost every game against China and have massive lead against the civilisation most of the time before it even reaches age 3.
Ethiopia used to be a good pick against Germany in the previous patches, It’s probably still performing better compared to other nerfed civilisations but not a Germany counter anymore. Ethiopia recieved many unit nerfs and no longer counters Germany as it would anymore.
Malta used to be a balance concern in the previous patches, generally Malta would get 10 pikes out before Germany even ages and win in late commerce age with much better units, right now Malta recieved multiple nerfs and global change of light infantry no longer countering hand cav is globally a better change for Germany as uhlans have considerably low health.
Spain I don’t think was ever a Germany counter mach up, some competitive players used to consider it as Spain favoured but based on the game results in the recent years it seems more like the case the match up is rather tricky and can definitely go for both ways when played correctly, wouldn’t call Germany as a counter to Spain either.
I don’t think Brit and Haud are a Germany counter right now
Brits I don’t think if it was ever a one sided match up, Germany semi-ff was generally doing good against Brits and with recent all brit overnerfs it’s nearly impossible for Brit to deal against Germany, it even ends up with Germany outbooming Brits right now as Germany has 6 villagerss 2 uhlans shipment and Brits get 5 villagers removed.
Haud is one of the easy Match up for Germany right now, because Germany mass is very high and Haud players generally end up with getting outmassed or not being able to pressure Germany player also stucking in commerce age against uncounterable Germany mass. Haud ff also straight loses against Germany, as the economy and mass scaling is not as good as Germany and chance of doing pressure in early age 3 is not possible against Germany. Have also played this Match up with many competitive players and no matter who plays, Germany always have been massive overperforming even before the overperforming age4 buffs
Germany can’t be pressured by any civilisation in age 2 or 3 right now. That’s what makes it even harder to deal against the civilsiation, germany has one of the best defending options in the game.
In the previous patches it was possible for some civilisations to deal against Germany in late game, because Germany units were not the greatest in supremacy after late age 4 and would give chance to compete against but with recent overperforming buffs, it’s not longer possible to deal with it either as Germany recieved many late game buffs which makes it overperforming for many civilisations to counter. Cheaper guard techs, buffed skirmishers, buffed uhlans, many mercenary shipments were buffed.
I agree it’s not always possible show a civilisation’s performance on overall data, it was the same for Italy, was below average win ratio for a long time despite most competitive players already knew it was a great civilisation. Which made it even more of a balance concern with the buffs to an already overperforming civilisation. At competitive elo, Germany has the highest win ratio right now. It’s nearly impossible to deal agaisnt Germany for many civilisations that just make the games way too sided.
I made a tier list for Germany match ups from hard to easy.
S: Not Germany favoured
A: Close match up
B: Germany favoured
C: Heavily Germany favoured
I think hausa age 2 is overperforming right now, which makes it hard for Germany to deail against in age 2, it’s the only civilisation Germany struggles in early game as well. But when it goes to late game Germany counters the civilisation quite easy.
Germany is objectively broken, almost no civilisation can counter the civ other than Hausa in the game, small changes wouldn’t be able to change it at this point, civilisation bonus is overperforming, 6 villagers 2 uhlans shipment is overperforming, late game buffs made it too good. I hope it will be fixed in the new patch.
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While im unsure about all the claims, i do see points on some civs being nerfed (Malta india particularly) and appreciate the explanation. Ill try and keep an eye out for casts/recs and civ grid changes on the upper end of elo for germany and see if people are adapting or if the tiet list seems to be playing out. Ill also check if avg match time changes as that can also show when cards or ages are being decisive a bit
Thank you for the write up its given me some areas to watch for, and id be on the watch for usa (its narly atm and has tempo and eco of germnay) 
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