Seriously. Does anyone think it would make more sense if was just plus 2? Plus 2 would make them already very strong, without making them cartoonishly OP at the same time.
If somehow this makes Lithuanian weak. Maybe buff them in somewhere else.
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so we should nerf a bonus you have to actually work for to be worse then some bonuses you get for just researching a tech? no thanks.
It seems like an overly punishing bonus.
and yet Lithuanians winrates aren’t over the top or anything, so why do they need to be nerfed? if its overly punishing if you let the lithuanian player get 4 relics, which seems like a serious misplay on your part.
I seen happen a lot in team games. Everyone just gives Lithuanians the relics. And they get super Paladins which are very hard to beat.
50% winrate in team games. so seems like reality isn’t matching up with what you’re seeing.
overall reflects teh same.
If you only factor in 1v1. Then maybe sure. The fact, this bonus is somewhat cartoonish OP. Or Pro Games. Not average players, or bad players.
these are team game winrates.
the fact is, its a bonus they have to actively work for, not just granted or researched, and can be taken away too, unlike something just given or researched.
either way, the winrates show that Lithuanians is balanced.
50% at pro level and 50% overall winrate. both reflect them being balanced. so yes, even among bad players Lithuanians winrate remains balanced.
https://aoestats.io/stats/RM_TEAM/<1000
every single category shows them below 51%.
bad players. you mean like the sub 1k category where they have exactly 50% winrate?
And what would Paladins weak with plus 2 attack? They would still be very powerful. On top of the fact you have gold coming in from the relic to help you make more of them.
If somehow this make the civ a F tier. Just maybe buff them some place else.
again, winrates show they are balanced. so why do they need to be nerfed?
or how about we don’t nerf what isn’t needed to be nerfed? should we nerf Aztecs infantry attack bonus down to +2? i mean all they have to do is RESEARCH a tech and it APPLIES TO ALL INFANTRY and they can’t have it taken away.
what about burmese bonus? its not even researched. its just given. should we nerf that down to +2?
Teutons get +2 armor for FREE, should we take that away?
what about Farimba? +5 to every cavalry. maybe we should nerf that down to +4?
oh. and since these bonuses all can never be taken away once achieved maybe if you lose whatever building researched them, we should have the bonus go away.
Lithuanians have 3 bonuses, that’s it. and you want to nerf the one that holds the civ up.
With just plus 2 attack. The Lithuanian Paladin would beat nearly every unit in the entire game in a 1v1 fight. With plus 4 relics, you basically have what is like a lesser, yet cheaper version of a Persian War Elephant on a horse with less bonus damage taken from Halbs.
and? aside from knights, leitis (not a team game unit), and trash, what else do they have? they still have to work for the bonus. also they trade 1 for 1 with Teuton Paladins, who got their bonus for FREE.
and yet despite this their winrates remain balanced. so imagine what happens if you nerf that down to +2.
think about that. with what you are calling practically guaranteed +4 paladins their winrates remain balanced.
I guess we will agree to differ. I find it cartoonishly OP. Regardless of win rates.
the bonus is very strong. but the civ is entirely reliant on it. you nerf it and you’d literally have to buff the civ elsewhere to the equivalent of an extra 2 attack on knights and leitis.
They could buff Tower Shield. Perhaps? Give them above average trash units.
they already have above average trash units, and that’s making their trash stronger, which are defensive units, and doesn’t win you the game. that isn’t equivalent to 2 extra attack on your core offensive military units.
ALL REPEAT WITH ME!!!
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still needs 4 hits to kill halbs (maybe more with Teutonic halbs and Viking Pikemen).
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still needs 4 hits to kill halbs (maybe more with Teutonic halbs and Viking Pikemen).
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still needs 4 hits to kill halbs (maybe more with Teutonic halbs and Viking Pikemen).
Lithuanian Paladin with 22 attack still needs 4 hits to kill halbs (maybe more with Teutonic halbs and Viking Pikemen).
And:
Lithuanians haven’t any eco bonus after dark age.
Lithuanians haven’t any eco bonus after dark age.
Lithuanians haven’t any eco bonus after dark age.
Lithuanians haven’t any eco bonus after dark age.
Then:
The relic bonus is the only bonus in the game that can be easily denied.
The relic bonus is the only bonus in the game that can be easily denied.
The relic bonus is the only bonus in the game that can be easily denied.
The relic bonus is the only bonus in the game that can be easily denied.
Relic bonus is pretty unreliable. It is not a guarantee to collect relics. Collecting more relics (or maximize the effect of this bonus) before your opponents requires good skill, which should be rewarded.
I don’t like the idea of a +20% bonus damage for the Best unit in Game, i would like it more if it was just for leitis.
But relics is a must for liths, they can be predictable and You can deny the bonus… at the end it’s kind of ok
I am in no way advocating for any nerf (or buff) to lithuanians, as I think they are in a good spot right now. However people complain way too much about their bonii, like they were weak. Food bonus at start is really good and faster trash is a really, really good bonus, especially for defense. But most importantly, relic bonus cannot be easily denied by the opponent. Getting all the relics is a considerable investment and just really hard to do, as long as you are getting contested. Getting 4 relics may be hard, but getting 2 should be almost guaranteed if you play decently.
Pros are constantly picking lithuanians in tournaments and showing us that they are a really solid civ. I don’t think any big changes are needed at the moment.