Tbf there are civs with worse overall compositions that lack Blast Furnace, so taking it away wouldn’t be the end of the world. Buuut I would much rather nerf the starting food, because it’s just way too good compared to any other +extra resource starting bonus out there. (e.g. Persians get +50f, +50w, Incas get <100 food from the Llama, and takes time to collect, etc.)
I would love if they nerf there cavalry and buff their infantry instead.
they only need a nerf for hybrid maps. same with japan / persia
nerfing them on land just means even more boring games vs mindless frank paladin spam. the position-picking setting completely killed the game balance. the only way to not play frank mirrors all the time is to power creep all the other options. it’s lunacy
I just ask myself is a lith nerf really necessary?
I think other civs are generally much stronger and Lith is only one of many civs with special strong build orders in these maps.
Yes the 150 F could be tweaked down to 100 but this could already be an overnerf, making lith, basically the only generally competitive reminder of the DE expansion, possibly really average in general. I actually like the Lith spot right now. Opposed to civs like tatars which have very special conditions for favourable maps, lith are somewhat a “flexible” civ without just being completely OP ecowise like Chinese or Vikings. Lith still have their drawbacks which makes it much more interesting to play with and against them.
Yes, the answer to your own question is an obvious, and resounding yes. They have the strongest early eco bonus, a very solid bonus to their knight-line, pretty solid trash units overall (faster skirms, extra PA on skirms), gunpowder access, full monastery, they can literally play pretty much anything. 150F is stupidly OP, even 100F is borderline OP comparing to any other early eco bonus in game.
But is this more needed than finally nerfing chinese and mayans?
No, but that doesn’t invalidate that the 150F bonus is too strong on top of all the other things the civ has. I would be in favour of nerfing mayans and chinese, although I am not quite sure how.
My suggestion to nerf them is to not nerf them and see where they end up first
I hope Lithuanians will be nerfed on hybrid maps.
At least 50% of my games on Four Lakes and similar maps are against Lithuanians.
As for Chinese or Mayan on Arabia I see them much less frequent than Lithuanians on Four Lakes.
Playing against same civilization over and over again is extremely annoying. That’s real problem for me.
Hence I think Lithuanians domination on hybrid maps is greater problem than overall high power of Chinese.
That’s the point. Attack on palas is way more important than melee armor which is why Lith ones with 2 relics is better than Teuton Paladin. Rarely it’s pala vs pala but usually you face halbs and killing them faster is what makes them better. Since for that you only need 2 relics it wouldnt even make huge difference if they nerfed the relic bonzs to 3 or 2.
I guess just reduce the food bonus to 100 so people stop complaining about hybrid maps and the civ is fine. On land maps it’s a good one on both open or closed but I don’t see how they’d be op there.
Against Halbs the Teuton armour is better. It allows them to resist an extra hit while Lithuanians are unable to kill halbs is one less hit once you include the halb armour
And to add, the +150f was proposed to be toned down to +100F at the very first major patch (Back in 2019), evidenced here:
Was cancelled at last minute, I ve heard FE want to maintain the bonus as is.
But my whole point is basically, extra attack on Paladin isn’t broken as many people want it to be
Oh yeah you’re right, that’s Leitis who kills halbs in 3 hits. Mixed them up.
Leitis only need 2 relics though
And Lith Paladins with 4 relics can kill halbs in 3 hits the ones that lack the final armor, such Magyars, or arbs in 2, such Aztec ones, and even deal 20 damage per hit vs Mongol Heavy Camel and even Imperial Camel
There are 1 of 2 nerfs I’d like to see done to the Lithuanians if they’re getting the Winged Hussar.
- Remove relic bonus and instead have; Cavalry +1 attack in Castle Age, +2 attack in Imperial Age (+2 total).
This nerfs the potential damage output of their Paladin and Leitis, but gives you always consistent extra damage if you don’t get access to relics, as well as buffed light cav.
- Go the same way as the Poles and remove paladin.
Now you have to rely on the Leitis with its low pierce armour to be your heavy cavalry unit.
Either way I still think you’d have a very strong civ, without access to unambiguously the strongest paladin in the game.
There’s a huge issue with this, Leitis will have a guaranted 20 attack enough to kill halbs in three hits, would make them problematic again. On top of that, It nerfs their paladins quite badly.
So then basically they are just bad TG civ.
TBH I start to think that Lithuanians shouldn’t get Winged Hussar.
You can just nerf the Leitis attack by one if necessary. Also, I dont see any problem with their paladin getting nerfed as long as it ends up balanced
But at the same time why they need nerf, are they invalidating counters or something?
They have poor pierce armour though and need to be produced at a castle.
Archers or scorpions and halbs combined would be cost effective.
Then you might need to use light cav more to take down archers.
What I see as problematic is a unit with high HP and pierce armour that deals 22 attack.
The Lith paladin is too good in too many situations with that +4 attack.
So then basically they are just bad TG civ.
Why is Paladin necessary to be good at team games?
With a potential of +4 attack, you’d be in the same company as Malians and Bulgarians, and their cavaliers are quite good. In fact, Lithuanian cavaliers with 4 relics are better than Malian cavaliers.
If you needed to fight against paladin civs, then you have the Leitis and fast moving halbs to deal with them.
They’d peform fine, I don’t see how that would made them bad at all.
AND balanced with the fact they need relics to kill halbs faster
How they are better than example Frankish paladin, they don’t invalidate any counter, they still need 3 hist to kill arbalest lol
No High PA option with Mobility, and cavaliers just die faster to arbalest, thats why Bulgarians and Malians aren’t as picked like even ordinary paladin civs.