[LONG] AoK civs theoretical modernization and improvements

[ElizaKolmakov]

@CactusSteak2171

making keeps more relevant

They will never be, due to the stone cost associated, and how easy they are to ignore.

@icicle83

a single UU are the features that define a Civ.

Ok boomer.

@MatCauthon3

Frankly though a lot of these civs need no buffs.

They don’t have to be buffs, but if the civs had other options besides their current borderline OP strengths in certain aspects (Mangudai, Franks scouts into knights, Britons “just make more archers bro”), they could be toned down in the respective situations, keeping the game fresh, and giving other civs the space and breathing room to shine (instead of seeing Briton/Mayan flank and Hun/Frank pocket every game). I know it’s hard to imagine Franks making a unit that isn’t from the stable at any stage of the game, but with enough desire and commitment, I think it’s possible.

@UpmostRook9474

The only thing to look forward to is a potential update to Nomads’ effect, possibly including to make the TC able to take an amount of time (such like 1 min) to convert into a packed TC wagon.

I fail to see how having extra deer is more asinine than packing town centers.

@UpmostRook9474

Their market bonus is a huge economic bonus that needs to be learned

Time and statistics have proven that it isn’t “huge” by any means, and all it can do is open some opportunities for cheesy all-ins.

@UpmostRook9474

how would that be balanced?

It wouldn’t. Hence I’d rather explore the concept of light artillery instead.

@SirWiedreich

have the devs ever released any kind of statement to that effect?

It was once revealed to me in a dream.

@UpmostTheBat

I think the problem is that they are loosing their identities.

Yes, because you can’t have 50 civs in a game where the only bonuses are “15% cheaper thing” and “15% faster thing” and expect it to not have enough overlaps to make civs feel the same. Hence, in my eyes, it is almost required to go back to the drawing board to the old civs that were designed in a different era and make them more diverse and polished, considering they were conceptualized for what at this point seems like a completely different metagame.

@TwerDefender

these civs are all in a decent place balance wise

Ridiculous claim, when all 3 of those have been in the bottom 30% of winrates overall for the past 20 years. And adding things to a civ doesn’t mean it has to get better necessarily- if the other aspects of its strengths get toned down.

[Mahazona]

If there is to be unique skins for units those should be new not reused ingame once.

[Gaudio3342]

While there’s no need to make changes too every old civ just because they’re old, some matters could be attended.
The most important ones are imo the overlapping roles of britons’ regular crossbow line and longbows, goth balance and predictability issue and the persians lack of bonuses that makes them feel kind of generic.

Throwing in a second unique unit or a unique building without careful thinking is a cheap solution that most probably would bring along new issues.

Some other things I’d like to comment on:

@ElizaKolmakov

Samurai getting their intended ranged attack

This idea work for rathas because in mele mode they can chase their objectives and close the distances. Samurai couldn’t do it so easily. There would be no reason for making them go melee except for snipping siege. They would practically become a ranged unit.

@ElizaKolmakov

Teutons: Crusader knight

Please people, Teutons are not a crusader civ. They were not more crusaders than the franks, english or sicilians. Teutons are just the germans. Why would them specifically get the crusader knight? It only makes the meme aspect worse. The teutonic knight is enough nod to the baltic crusades.

[UpmostRook9474]

@ElizaKolmakov

@UpmostRook9474

The only thing to look forward to is a potential update to Nomads’ effect, possibly including to make the TC able to take an amount of time (such like 1 min) to convert into a packed TC wagon.

I fail to see how having extra deer is more asinine than packing town centers.

A packed TC allow you move your TC to get close to the wood line without building a new one.
Of course it is niche, but it could be useful, and it would not be alone since It might be a part of the new effect of Nomads. Its main effect would be still something about the population, such like directly give 100 pop space.

The extra deer would make them powerful all the time, that could be insane.
Once the efficiency is better than farming, the balance of the Mongols will be completely destroyed.
Once the efficiency is lower than farming, it is completely useless and not worth the investment.
Regardless of the likely lack of a decent historical background, either is a superfluous design.

@ElizaKolmakov

@UpmostRook9474

Their market bonus is a huge economic bonus that needs to be learned

Time and statistics have proven that it isn’t “huge” by any means, and all it can do is open some opportunities for cheesy all-ins.

The all-in-focused bonus is boring but indeed huge. The opponents must have enough experience and can’t make mistakes in the early game, otherwise they will be brutally killed by the Saracens’ all-in, and there is little chance of struggling. That’s why some people think this strategy is too powerful and needs to be adjusted.

On the other hand, even if the advantage of extremely low transaction fees is not obvious in the mid-game, as long as the game progresses sufficiently late, it will become apparent. This bonus is already the core identity of the Saracens.

@ElizaKolmakov

Hence I’d rather explore the concept of light artillery instead.

I’d rather give them the javelin cavalry than give them the Abus.

[bigbossbro08]

@ElizaKolmakov

Saracens: Historical accuracy aside, Genitours replacing the whole skirmisher line for Spanish, Portuguese, Berbers and Saracens, could make a lot of sense. Genitour in Feudal, Jinete in Castle, Elite Jinete in Imperial, where the Elite Jinete has 5 range, plus the stats of Elite Genitours now.
And the civs getting certain buffs for them- Saracens getting FU + Zealotry benefitting them, Berbers getting a discount on them (turning the stable units discount into “mounted units” discount, Camel Archer price adjusted accordingly). I don’t think that Saracens need anything else, but their big weakness to archer civs should be noted, as despite having FU skirms, their eco isn’t at all good enough to compete. In addition, all of those civs have good HC, champs, and other anti-infantry units to handle halb spam with.

What the lack is early eco bonus. They are currently being overbuffed on what they are good already. Personally don’t like it too much. I can say they should get a regional unique Knight unit replacament. Knight that has mobility similar to Camel but slightly less damage output than generic Knight line. Turks/Persian/Berbers can use it. We are getting units that totally change the way of we think of unitlines after all. No need to give Genitour. Just make it Berbers having the best version of it with balancing the range upto Skirmisher. Take their Elite Skirmisher upgrade in Castle Age. Give Turks Elite Skirmisher instead.

@ElizaKolmakov

Persians: I do believe that they could (hear me out, I will be reasonable) have an AoE4-style cavalry archer that can shoot while moving. They currently lack any backline damage-dealing units, their CA are bad, simply because they lack Bracer, but aside of that have full upgrades, and are historically significant (Parthian Tactics was in fact the “art” of shooting while retreating on horseback, employed by the Sassanids). Considering they would have just 6 range in imperial, and need a mass, I think an unique replacement for the CA-HCA line that can shoot while moving could make a lot of sense. Alternatively, it could be some other CA unit with a special ability.

Persians in AOE2 represents both post-Sassanid and pre-Sassanid period. In past they were considered a Elephant civ. Now they are just another civ with barely any proper identity. I think they should get Hindustani treatment. They can have access to Siege Elephants in Siege Workshop but is generic civ on paper.

@ElizaKolmakov

I did see something about Samurai getting their intended ranged attack, but they would need more than that. They have enough in terms of infrastructure, I do believe their military is lacking though. Some expensive cavalry unit with a “special” aura-like ability like the Daimyo could be an option, but then again, they would need a build limit, maybe 1 per castle that you currently have? That does seem like a plausible enough solution.

Just make it a foot Ratha maybe having a bit of bonus damage against UUs in both range and melee?

@ElizaKolmakov

Vikings: The whole civ feels like it lacks identity, for balance I’d give them better scorpions, but I’m not sure what exactly the civ needs in terms of completeness. I do believe they could use some infrastructure changes, such as having longhouses instead of houses, that support more population (and have extra functions? Heal the units around them? Allow villagers to be garrisoned? Provide some other utility?)

They are quite fine. Just need a unique architecture set.

@ElizaKolmakov

Teutons: What was the thing that a lot of people wanted again? Crusader knight? Like a weaker boyar made from the stable? A clear weakness Teutons currently have is their focus on close to mid range combat and lack of speed, maybe a unique siege unit, or a monk, could also be implemented, though I’d rather have something thematic that looks cool. The “weaker boyar” could have some special stats too, like taking less bonus damage from anti cavalry attacks. And still, Teutons are notoriously weak against archers, Boyars won’t help with that.

@ElizaKolmakov

Goths: not sure yet

I just vote them Crusader Knight replacing Knight-line. Their current civ design push towards that identity anyway. Teutons today still suffer from the mobility issue but they are designed as a defensive civ. That role is filled pretty nicely.
Goths mostly out of AOE2 period. They are just Teutons in denial.

@ElizaKolmakov

Turks: Unique Bombard cannons anyone? Dardanelles artillery? It’s not like they need much aside of that, though I could see an argument regarding their lack of options to deal with archers. I’d even consider giving them a lighter anti-archer unit in the castle age, something like the abus gun in aoe3. 7 range, deals a bit of splash damage with every shot, gunpowder unit similar to the janissary, but made from the siege workshop, with food and gold. 7 range in imp, but affected by the UT for +2.

I say their Artilery UT turns Trebuchet into a stronger Trebuchet. Means Great Bombard unit that can pack unpack. Got nice damage buff. Instead of regular slow projectile that Trebuchet throws, they dont suffer from this issue.

Overall Saracens, Persians are some of the design that’s not faithful to this game yet. Especially Saracens. It should be renamed to Arabians because that’s what they called themselves. Europeans used to generalize any Muslim empires as Saracens which is quite wrong to represent them. They were well known for Knight-hood but surprisingly got bad Knight? The way I see it Berbers should’ve been the Saracens. Maybe not the eco bonus.

[SirWiedreich]

@ElizaKolmakov

It was once revealed to me in a dream.

Ah yes, I also have dreams like that sometimes after I…“Research Herbal Medicine”

@Gaudio3342

This idea work for rathas because in mele mode they can chase their objectives and close the distances. Samurai couldn’t do it so easily. There would be no reason for making them go melee except for snipping siege. They would practically become a ranged unit.

Not rehashing it here, but this issue has been addressed at least semi-thoroughly in my thread on it.

Request: Let Samurai Toggle Melee/Ranged

For quite a long time, I’ve found the Samurai to be a rather underwhelming unit that embodies an interesting concept, but doesn’t really have the strengths to take advantage of it most of the time. It’s not a bad unit per se, but the cases in which it’s optimal are few and far between. A useful comparison is with the Jaguar warrior. Theoretically, the Samurai is good against unique units. In practice, it is good against maybe less than 1/3rd of unique units. Theoretically, the Jaguar Warrio…

[PowerAnimal39]

Great post, I’m perplexed how few such posts there are here.

AoE 2 is crossbow - knight - skirmisher, it’s extremely boring. Civs have little personality, no flair. This game needs some flair. There are UUs, most useless, rarely ever seen in actual gameplay.

People here confuse civ design with civ balance. They’re two entirely independent realms, everyone only wants to talk balance here. Boring.

[TwerDefender]

apart from the crossbow, knight, skirmishers you mentioned I’ve seen kipchaks, pikes, champions, camels, ghebetos, berserkers, eagles and keshiks in just my last 5 games. (and of course: rams, trebs, monks, mangonels, scorpions and water units)

[MatCauthon3]

@PowerAnimal39

This game needs some flair

One of the most beloved rts games of all time.
Has little flair by your standards.

Yet somehow despite being a huge success it needs flair? Why? 3 and 4 went for more flair and are not the success 2 is.

[PowerAnimal39]

Yeah I forgot pikes.

AoE 2 is crossbow - knight - pikes - skirmisher. Copied 42 times over, in 42 civs. Extremely boring.

UUs are even less than marginal.

Don’t straight jacket your mind on the current AoE titles, imagine what AoE could be.

[TwerDefender]

i think it’s good that most civ play with similar units. i dont have the mental capacity to learn all 903 matchups and what units they will make

[MatCauthon3]

@PowerAnimal39

Don’t straight jacket your mind on the current AoE titles, imagine what AoE could be

Or we could see what happens when you mess with whst works (aoe3 and aoe4) and keep aoe2 away from the change for the sake of change mess.

[YangWenli33]

Well, I will write some suggestions too but just for fun. Remember, what will I write about some changes to these civs for fun, that’s all. This shouldn’t be considered that serious. Sometimes, I’ll mention my serious suggestions too.

Britons: lose access to plate boarding armor, light cav, and cavalier. instead of warwolf, a new unique tech allows them to create trash knights for 100 food.

Byzantines: A unique monastery with a dome that operates faster, and heals nearby units as u suggested. Instead of two-handed swordsman and champion, they get a new unique unit, varangian guards. upgrade’s cost will be the combination of two. varangian guards will be similar to berserk, they can heal themselves and they get 14 attacks just like them. For a serious suggestion, these guys need new voices in Greek.

Celts: Instead of light cavalry and hussar, they get a new unique unit called hobelar with an ax as a weapon that is fast with extra bonus damage against villagers and monks. their hp will be 90 but their attack will be 8.

Chinese: A new unique unit called fire lancer to replace knight-line. this unit will charge a gunpowder attack in their first shots, then, became a regular lancer with 9 and 11 attack. another unique unit for siege workshop, mortars instead of bombard cannons, and get access to hand cannoneer. These guys invented gunpowder, so, they should benefit from it. However, rocketry now doesn’t affect scorpions and loses access to scorpions completely.

Franks: Loses access to cheaper castle bonus. I am actually serious about this one, Franks is already too strong, they don’t need such a great bonus. But for the compensation, a new bonus will give 1 extra melee armor in castle age and 1 extra pierce armor in imperial age to their light cavs. Axemen’s range will be 5 at default, and bearded axe will give them 2 melee/1 pierce armor. This way, they can get a boost for axemen.

Goths: Anarchy will give Cav Archers 10 percent more speed and 10 percent faster attack. Get access to thumb ring and parthian tactics. Lose access to hand cannoneers and bombard cannons. Get access to siege onagers and plate boarding armor. Perfusion, on the other hand, will allow them to create huskarls at barracks but it will only give a 50 percent increase for barracks production speed. The price for perfusion might be a bit expensive too.

Japanese: Make samurai similar to Ratha, a cav archer unit that can switch battle modes but when they die, they turn into an infantry like Konnik. The ultimate unit.

Mongols: Well, this civ needs a new architecture setting and this is serious. Both Cumans, Huns, and Mongols might benefit from nomadic architecture. For fun, nomads became a civ bonus and a new tech allows their trebuchets to throw petards.

Persians: War Elephant became an editor-only unit, and their new uu is savar. Savar is similar to catas, they wreck infantry but also cavalry, and they get a 1 range attack just like steppe lancers. Archers, especially cav archers, are their weaknesses. Lose access to camels. Gets a central asian architecture (this is serious actually). Instead of mahouts, they get a new tech that increases savars and paladins attack 10 percent faster. Get access to caravanserais.

Saracens: Get access to caravanserais. In the imperial age, they get access to masjids which allows them to create imams. Imams converse units slowly but heal fastly.

Teutons: In the imperial age, they get access to crusader knights from stables just like condottiero. High melee attack slow cavalry unit that cannot be converted. get access to siege ram and instead of ironclad, teutonic order tech allows their monks to be 50 percent cheaper, and they get extra 2 melee/2 pierce armor.

Turks: Janissary became a unique upgrade for hand cannoneers just like houfnice, their hp with the turks’ bonus will be 55 and their base attack will be 20 but their range will be 7. artillery now only increases 1 range, which also affects hand cannoneers’ range this time but get access to siege engineers too. the new unique unit will be akinji with high pierce armor, fast speed and low melee armor. their melee armor will be 0 just like woads but this is a fast cavalry unit. they will solve the archers and siege problem for the turks. get access to caravanserais.

Vikings: Elite berserk upgrade will get the effect of berserkergang and a new unique tech called ragnarok will give a similar effect like keshiks to all infantry units and longboats to present their raiding. berserks’ hp will also become 75 with the bonus.

How about that? These became already problematic and broken. This was fun though.

Edit: For the Celtic unique unit, I proposed axe raiders but hobelar seems better from the suggestion of tommochocolate. Also, I decided to buff Frank light cavs with a new bonus too instead of that castle bonus. Both axemen and light cavs became better but they lose their castle bonus. Wow, isn’t Franks broken or something people? I added some tweaks to Goths too.

[TommoChocolate]

@TwerDefender

i think it’s good that most civ play with similar units. i dont have the mental capacity to learn all 903 matchups and what units they will make

Not sure where you got 903 from, but if you’re trying to exaggerate, you failed: there are 1764 1v1 matchups.

@YangWenli33

Britons: lose access to plate boarding armor, light cav, and cavalier. instead of warwolf, a new unique tech allows them to create trash knights for 100 food.

I enjoyed reading your suggestions, even if I don’t think they should happen. But I don’t get this one. Why would you suggest this for Britons?

@YangWenli33

Celts: Instead of light cavalry and hussar, they get a new unique unit called axe raider

It would make more sense to call it Hobelar, I think.

[YangWenli33]

@TommoChocolate

I enjoyed reading your suggestions, even if I don’t think they should happen. But I don’t get this one. Why would you suggest this for Britons?

Well, the reason is to reflect their Norman legacy and the importance of knights during the medieval ages as a class. Also, I thought it would be cool to see some trash knights in the game. Since these aren’t real balance suggestions, I thought it could be fun. Seriously though, I think Persians really should get Central Asian architecture. That was serious, not just a fun thought.

@TommoChocolate

It would make more sense to call it Hobelar, I think.

Then so be it, I’ll edit it for Hobelar.

[TwerDefender]

@TommoChocolate

@TwerDefender

i think it’s good that most civ play with similar units. i dont have the mental capacity to learn all 903 matchups and what units they will make

Not sure where you got 903 from, but if you’re trying to exaggerate, you failed: there are 1764 1v1 matchups

there are not 1764 1v1 matchups. you just did 42 x 42, right? well britons-aztecs is the same matchup as aztecs-britons.
I arrived at 903 by:
42*41/2 = 861 non-mirror matchups
+42 mirror matchups

[MatCauthon3]

@TwerDefender

well britons-aztecs is the same matchup as aztecs-britons

Not really. One is with you as aztecs and one is with you as britons

[TwerDefender]

it’s still the same matchup. to play it well you need to know when each civ has powerspikes and when it will transition. regardless of the civ you play you need to know this for both civs

[TommoChocolate]

I agree with @MatCauthon3 here, and it didn’t even occur to me that ignoring which civ you’re playing as is sensible. I do understand where you’re coming from, though.

[PowerAnimal39]

@MatCauthon3

Or we could see what happens when you mess with whst works (aoe3 and aoe4)

Who said aoe2 is perfection? Who said it’s the best Age of Empires could ever be? Aoe2 is boring, civs have almost no personality. Besides, lots of people prefer aoe3, and aoe4 is still too young to pass final judgment.