Make arrow knights 1 pop

Make the arrow knight 1 pop, here’s why. First of all, it’s counterpart the huaraca is a prestige unit and is worth the 2 pop, the arrow knight on the other hand is lackluster, slow and very weak attack. My proposal is to make it 1 pop but scale the unit down a bit. To begin, eliminating its multipliers vs ships completely, I would also buff it’s attack +2, it’s speed by +.25 but reduce it’s multiplier vs artillery x4 down from x5 and up its cost to 50 food 80 coin up from 50 food 75 coin. This would make Aztec age 3 very viable, give Aztecs a good anti artillery unity hat is is now viable.what do you guys think about changes to the arrow knight?

AK need more bonus against artillery, they do range damage without AoE unlike culverins. Canons have a 50% range resistance and AK are the only way to kill enemy canons that are protected by HI while canons are the perfect counter to aztecs, also they can kill AK cause they have bonus against them (less but they have it).
Same for ships, aztecs cant train mortars until imperial age, so they need that.

Both Huaraca and Arrow Knights need more love in the late game, if the enemy stacks 3-5 horse artillery there is no way you can kill the artillery with either Huaraca or Arrow Knights. My suggestion is to give them Dual Resistance on Legendary upgrade (siege and range resistance) so in this way, they can tank some artillery shots as well unlike now where they get 1 shot.

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Generally I think the only serious issue Aztec army still posses in Supremacy is lack of artillery. Because of that they are not a threat to Skirmisher mass.

Moreover, Aztec army itself is very vulnerable to Skirmisher units - which are being massed by pretty much every civ in mid-game and late-game. The only unit which can kill Skirmishers is Coyote Runner. Skirmisher will counter however every other unit:

  • Puma Spearmen (direct counter)
  • Jaguar Knight (direct counter)
  • Skull Knight (direct counter)
  • Eagle Runner Knight (direct counter)
  • Otontin Slinger (not a direct counter but trades effectively)
  • Arrow Knight (not a direct counter but trades effectively)

So, to sum this up - Aztec can’t effectively kill Skirmishers from range and 6/7 of their units are effectively killed by Skirmishers from range.

Aztec’s opponent does not even need artillery. He just need some heavy infantry to stop Coyote Runners and big mass of Skirmishers who will easily kill every other Aztec unit.

That’s why I think Arrow Knight should work not only as a Coluverin equivalent but also as a Falconet a little bit. In my opinion they should stay 2 pop, but they should have some Area of Effect (1 or 2) and a bigger cost. That way Aztec army would finally have a possibility to at least scary a Skirmisher mass and the last serious design flaw would be fixed.

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Unless things have changed heavily in the last year, ERKs have always been a soft counter to skirmishers, due to them being an extremely cost-effective stat-ball that moves at high speed.
Aztec’s biggest issues have always been about countering artillery.

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It is quite opposite :stuck_out_tongue:
Skirmishers are dealing 2 x 0.75 = 1.5x base damage to every Ranged Cavalry units. However specifically for Eagle Runners they do not have this negative 0.75 multiplier typically reserved to Cavalry. That’s why Skirmishers will deal 2x damage to Eagle Runner and 1.5x to Dragoon type units.

Veteran Skirmisher will deal 25,2 damage to Eagle Runner Knight while ERK will deal 10,5 damage per shot to Skirmisher (every 1,5s). Clearly Skirmishers are countering ERK.

Speed is also not an argument. ERK speed is 6.0 while typical Dragoon unit has 7.25.
Skirmisher also has 20 range compared to ERK 12 (12 without upgrades, 16 with a card).

I am absolutely aware of these numbers, I’ve been maining the Aztecs since 2011. In my experience, ERK are cost-efficient counters into skirms. The only exception is the Lakota, who are just hard to counter in general because Wakina Rifles can easily be the strongest skirmisher in the game, with an attack of upwards of 80 in the right situation.
Skirms also fire at half the speed of ERK, and the movement speed is very important, as it means the skirms can’t kite out the much-faster-firing ERKs.

The point is to make them pop efficient so you can mass them up without having to compromise space for other units like skulls or erk. If you have 2 arrow knights it’s the same siege vs ships as 2 pop arrow knight hence the removal of its multiplier vs ships. Against artillery yes maybe don’t take 1 away from its multiplier but that’s why the attack buff is there so it can trade better with other units but it won’t compromise its attack vs artillery. Arrow knights are currently doing 50 damage to artillery which translate to 12.5 damage per shot, the new arrows knight will be 1 pop and it will do 12 damage per shot, not much of a change but overall buff. It’s the right direction to go, 2 pop is dead ■■■ insane it’s not worth the pop.

I’m not against this but in the DE beta the arrow knights actually were 1 pop, so I’m guessing the devs probably found that it was pretty broken in some way. It could probably work but they might have to take a hit to their range or armor to make it so 100 arrow knight comps in team games doesn’t become broken.

2 Likes

Yes that’s very true, maybe tune that armor from 40 percent down to 30 percent to make them not too op but thank for your input.that’s interesting that it was 1 pop during beta.

Maybe also up their cost from 50 food 75 coin to 50 food 100 coin but keep 40 percent armor ,that’s about a 25 percent increase in resources, this will make them just a little bit less spammy and encourage people to use them more as anti artillery siege units rather than just spam them cause they won’t be cost effective against other units but at the same time be as effective at culvs being 1 pop.

Giving them some siege resistance from the big button that spawns arrow knights could work

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eu ja pensei nisso acho que e uma ideia boa, 2 de dano de área mais com multiplicador 2x contra infantaria dano base de 15 e um ROF de 3,5 ou 3,0

Well, this is nice idea but Arrow Knights would have to be veeery expensive to have a stats like this.

Whats a good price? It’s currently at 50 food 75 coin, I suggested somewhere like 50 food 90-100 coin, the point is to make the arrow knight too expensive to spam, and only use it for seiging and taking out artillery. At 1 pop.

The trouble is arrow knights have decent stats for price, all things (range, speed, rof, damage, multipliers, armour, hp, train time, upgradability), the issue of course is that 100 res of unit is generally 1 pop. units can then fluctuate a bit indicative of their power eg. abus and uhlans are 150 res but 2 pop, jpk are (were?) 150 res and 1 pop.
Arrow knights are 125 res and 2 pop, which is a massive detriment, but of course since all of azzys lategame units are >100 res per pop except arrow knights they almost need to be 2 pop to keep the rest of the army in check… again an issue because they are the only true counter to artillery at range they have.
doubling their stats, 250 res cost for 2 pop would arguably be an effective fix, although im not sure thats desirable either

If you double the cost then it would be way more expensive than a culv, culvs are like 400-500 resources, you need at least 13 arrow knights to one shot a falconet , 2 culvs 1 shot a falconet , 125 * 13 is about 1625 resources, which is quite expensive and weak at its job compared to 2 culvs which take 8 pop while arrow knights to do the same job take about 26 pop. Does that make it clearer why the arrow knight underperforms? And needs a buff badly, more than the November pup.

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i do hope you’ve read my aztec guide at some point before- you cant ignore that culvs also have a very low rof so while they do one shot falconets faster it is at a lower rate. if you have thirteen arrow knights and good micro you can take down 5 hypothetical falcs in the time it takes 2 culvs to take down 2 falcs. I do think arrow knights need a buff but they are much more comparable to a hand mortar, not a culverin and should be treated as such. hand mortars are siegey culvs, 50rr, things like that. unfortunately, hand mortars are 1 pop, another slap in the face to aztec.

Just give arrow knights a 2x against infantry so the perform more like flaming arrows?

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Hand Mortars are good against building, ships and artillery. But they are useless against any other units.
Because of that Chinese army has also Flying Crow (Falconet/Rocket equivalent).

We can improve Arrow Knights as a better counter against artillery which is fine. But it would still not solve an Aztec’s issue with infantry mass (Skirmishers in particular).
They don’t have artillery nor Lancer unit (with multipliers to Infantry) nor even Cavalry unit with area damage (like Cuirassier or Spahi).

That’s why I think that remodeling AK to be similar to a Hand Mortar will not be a good change. Something similar to Flaming Arrow would be a better choice as @Zebrastreifen77 suggested.