I good go with spanish missing elite genitour too, but I wouldn’t think they would be that strong though. Genitour is currently a niche unit, good against mangudai and chasing archers, but aside of that they’re not much different from skirms and both units compete for the same anti-archer role. And the skirms just win, they’re cheaper and offer almost the same. It’s something similar to steppe lancers and knights issue.
Are you sure about that? Because I’m pretty sure Genitours have always been affected by Sipahi, and still are.
I prefer they gain access to shipwright as a naval civ instead. Team bonus can still provide Genitour for the allies as most civs dont have access to Genitour.
Oh yeah I just checked, you’re right! Sorry about that! For some reason I was thinking back in HD that it had been changed.
Yeah, that was the point. Camel Archers, despite their .625 fdelay, are also a micro-y unit so it would fit the theme. I strongly believe civs should reflect and leverage certain play styles thematically and technologically.
hit & run raids, spam raids, siege push, melee push (cav, karambit, karls, etc), turtling, booming, rushing, war of attrition, map control, etc.
If I were able to design Berbers from the ground up, I would give them bonuses based on their pastoralism, nomadic lifestyle and trade.:
Mounted Archer and Naval civilization
• Villagers move 15% faster (nomadic)
• Herdables and shore fish give 20% more food (pastoralism)
• Husbandry is free (nomadic / trade)
• Buildings give back 20% of their wood when destroyed (nomadic)
Trade cogs are 15% cheaper. Trade carts are 10% cheaper (trade)
Camel Archer (cavalry archer)
• Kasbah (Castles and towers now also give back 20% of their stone when destroyed) (nomadic)
• Maghrebi Camels (Camel units regenerate) (pastoralism)
Get it? “Rock the Kasbah?” This also makes historical sense, since Kasbah were fortifications and often re-used/re-appropriated by new leadership (warring tribes, etc).
• Mounted archers (camel archer, cavarch, genitour) and galley (not [elite] galleon, different projectile) frame delay is reduced by 20%
- Add Shipwright
- Remove Crop rotation (subsistence agriculture)
- Remove Elite cannon galleon (balancing)
- Remove Heavy demolition ship (balancing)
- Remove Stone shaft mining (balancing)
They had good trade relations all across the Sahel and the Mediterranean (gold, salt, spices, textiles). I first had a raw yield bonus on trade, but the trade bonus works better with Spanish TB, since this only affects the initial investment. Destroyed buildings giving back wood is supposed to make it easy to rebuild elsewhere (or produce navy / ranged units). If you combine all the bonuses, you get a powerciv for any nomadic map. Removing crop rotation, stone shaft mining, heavy demo and elite cannon galleon makes it so they aren’t op late game (especially with a spanish ally) and offsets the new bonuses to keep it balanced. The reduced frame delay makes for a strong castle age (where it matters most). They rely more on good team trade for a good Imp and they can defend reasonably against trade raids with lower frame delay. Since Berber vils now have 15% instead of 10% more speed, especially if stacked with wheelbarrow and hand cart, the removal of crop rotation and stone shaft mining is as much a balancing act as it is a means to force them more into a wood/gold eco (ranged units, ships, siege).
Let me know if you like my theorycrafting
Do mangudai rly need further team bonus to reduce their frame delay. I like the idea but this scares me.
Also I think if Turks got siphai genitours then it would be a bit Op in 1v1.
I would suggest giving Turks and Spanish only non elite. (Spanish already have FU trash)
non elite genitour are not bad, so it could work and would keep their identity of non elite trash.
Another thing. Does anyone know if genitours were more usual in portuguese armies or spanish ones? Or both? Just for curiosity
Very interesting! I feel like the eco bonus of 20% more food from herdables and shore fish may be a bit similar to Tatar’s sheep. I also would be interested to see how much of an eco effect an extra 5% speed boost on the villagers would practically give.
Personally I think the cheap stable units would be missed, but I like the idea of improved frame delay as a team bonus. I do wonder how difficult it would be to balance.
The wood and stone return for destroyed buildings is also very creative, I like that concept, certainly would make the Berbers harder to put down haha.
Without the cavalry bonus the civ would propably drop even below Portuguese and Koreans in winrste.
TougherTrack508 suggested making faster 10% moving villa the new Berber team bonus.
Sounds good to me! Great combo with incaa, or Spanish or goth dark age loom tush.
Berbers could additionaly get a new civ bonus. Like the cav archer frame delay reduction but not as a team bonus, maybe?
Or the above building wood cost refund.
I would like if the Camel Archers would get back +1 bonus damage vs Rams. They used to have +2 before getting nerfed a while ago.
Maybe you could even extend that to all their Cavalry Archer units which then would even include Genitours.
An additional idea would be to make their Stable units 10% cheaper in Feudal Age (10/15/20% throughout Ages) but I can see it being too similar to the Magyars bonus in Feudal Age.
No matter what kind of the new bonus of Berber will get. Change the appearance of Genitours if this suggestion would come true.
They look too Arabian now. Or maybe there could get two different looks, Iberian style and Arabian style.
Agree. They look too middle eastern. If this is to be done, they should look halfway through european and middle eastern.
The same way cavalry archers look nomadic but not as much as tarkans or steppe lancers.
Berbers have very good light cavalry, so maybe a buff for them would be the best option.
I would go for +15% speed to scout and genitours. Another option could be +2 bonus attack for scouts (not +2 attack but a +2 bonus against something like archers, cavs, or vills)
I think it would also make sense if Malians got it tbh
A this point? Nothing, really.
(Yes, I am quoting a post from almost a year back, but the same question is still relevant today.)
Berbers are currently one of the best performing civs nobody quite complains about for being too strong. They are in a really good place, and any serious buff they can actually use means they would immediately need to be nerfed again. As a Berbers picker I like them the way they are now.
Which basically leaves one option: promote one of the civ’s regular bonuses to a team bonus, But the stable discount is way too strong, the faster villagers is something that could stack too well with other economy bonuses and the faster moving ships could be too strong on water maps, like maybe team up with some super strong water civ, let them compete for water control with the extra speed on top of their own bonuses and use the Berbers for a landing into knights. So none of those are an option really.
So yeah, that leaves something weaksauce players will barely notice, like one extra LOS on camel units. Or maybe even just camel riders, because for camel archers that might already be too much.
In the end, I end up being against this idea mostly because Berbers have a perfect position in the current meta, you can’t fix what is the opposite of broken.