Maltese Tongue rework

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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I recently made a post about reworking the Maltese civ, and through the discussion we had there, I realized maybe it need less of a change then I thought—but there are still a few (or several) things I still think need changed. The main thing being the Maltese lategame comp Not being their base army (xbows, sentinels, fire throwers, ect.) but instead being the Order units. This is already somewhat how it is due to their basic comp being SO weak lategame; but I’d rather it be that way because the Order Units are actually good. So here we go—

Auvergne: age 1, 500 food—ships 1 Hospitalar Knight 5 cattle, and a feeding pen, enables you to build cows and makes them trickle coin when tasked to a feeding pen. The point of this card is to represent Auvergne (which was one of the Tongues) and it’s cattle/dairy production. The coin trickle would also help with Malta’s struggling lategame economy (due to 1 factory), in a fun and different way.

Germany: same as it is now.

Provence: age 2, 500 wood—ships one commandery and 10 Order musketeers.
I couldn’t really find anything extra special about Provence (militarily), but it is a mountainous area so maybe it could make your musketeer-type units faster? Other then that due to these being French musketeers they would gain combat promotion age 3 or 4.

British: same as it is now.

Italian: age 3, 1000 wood—ships one commandary and 10 Order Schiavone.

Portugal and Castille: 1000 wood—ships one commandary and 10 Order Dragoons, gives +1 range to Dragoons.

Aragon: age 4, 1500 wood—ships 12 Order Lancers with Cabalerros enabled.

France, age 4, 1500 wood—ships 1 commandary and 8(?) Order Cuirassiers, grants hussars additional armor, but decreases their speed.

The Russian Tongue becomes a unique “revolt” to represent much of the Order moving to Russia after Malta was lost.

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No skirmisher units? Order Cassadors are pretty much one of the most valuable units since civilization itself has no skirmishers.

I don’t think it is necessary to distinguish the tongues so finely. For example, we can have France without Provence and Auvergne. Also, I’m not sure we still need three types of heavy cavalry. At least one of Lancer and Cuirassiers can be changed, I think maybe the latter.

On the other hand, you can still consider Protestant countries such as Sweden and the Netherlands if necessary. Even though they are Protestant, they still have a partnership with the Order. For example, have Swedish offer Infantry Guns or Hakkapelits, and the Dutch offer Ruyters or Banks.

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I would also add an IV age card that increases the hp/at of order units by +15/15%, or at least buffs them by +10/10% along with another effect.

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Skirmishers really aren’t necessary considering how good the xbow mass is (especially vs ranged cav) and barely anyone actually uses cassadors because of this reason.

The Tongues of the Order were specific things, so why not be specific, especially if it would add spice. I’d be fine with Swedish and Dutch cards if you want, but they weren’t one of the Tongues of the order, so name those cards something else.

As far as heavy cavalry just get rid of the Opri—Russia wasn’t one of the Tongues anyways.

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In the lack of wood, especially in treaty games, did people still insist on using Crossbowmen?

I don’t know. I just see you chose the Cows and French musketeers that are neither unique units nor royal guard units. And, you chose the Dragoons that the civ already have.

I would like to change the Russian card to give +2 Commanderies and give the Commanderies better health and attack, like +30%. Maybe it could also give Order units +15% health and attack. All of these are to reflect the Russians had sheltered the Order.

Once there are Lancers or Cuirassiers, I guess people would barely use Hussars. I think one of them could be changed to another type of Spanish or French unit.

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In treaty, the presence of the Italian anti-skirm would make a late-game skirm mostly unnecessary.

When I say the Tongues of the Order were specific things, I mean historically. Having one of them be musketeers or cows doesn’t break that. There’s not really any reason to think they Should be unique or royal guard units other then them being so (unique units) now in game.

I didn’t want their roster to be Too big, that’s why I chose cows and Goons for a couple of them. The goons would be trainable before you send that card, but it’d be a nice ranger cav shipment that boosts your goons.

I was actually thinking of the French card Not enabling cuirs—it would ship them and upgrade your hussars in some way. So you’d have lancers with cabeleros, and fairly good hussars.

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I’m not denying the massive influence of Russia on the Order, just saying it should be a different type of card.

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As far as I know, this type of unit is weaker against other units than skirmishers because of its enhanced ability to fight skirmishers. Furthermore, this unit is not obtained through normal training even for the Italians, so it doesn’t seem to make sense for the Maltese to have better way to access.

Overall I still think there should be skirmisher units. We have them now and there is no reason to lose them.

I know it. It’s just not my point.

Then, they would become less cool than now. Personally speaking.

If I were to say, I’d like to keep them being unique units or royal guard units. Such like…

  • German: Settler Wagons.
  • British: Longbows.
  • Spanish: Rodelero. (The Maltese don’t have their own 1 pop fast heavy infantry.)
  • Portuguese: Cassadors, or Legionario Musketeers.
  • French: Cuirassiers (if Portuguese are Cassadors), or Voltigeur Skirmishers (if Portuguese are musketeers).
  • Italian: Galleass. (Up to 1 in Docks, and make Commanderies able to improve nearby Docks or ships.)
  • Swedish: Infantry Guns. (Maybe not to enable training if shipping more units, as they were not a ‘tongue’.)
  • Dutch: Ruyters. (Maybe not to enable training if shipping more units, as they were not a ‘tongue’.)
  • Russian : No units but +2 Commanderies (1 more than others), and improve Commanderies and Order units (so we still can have good Hussars and Dragoons).
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I think the French musketeers with combat promotions are pretty cool, but I’m not really opposed to these suggestions. I’d probably go legion musketeers for ports and voltigers for France (age3-age4). I’d still like the cow thing for Auvergne (with some tweaks), and I’d still like Provence to get representation. Since both of those are places in France it could be fun if they were both Eco Tongue cards. I think the Russia thing could be bigger then just a card, but if all we get is a card then I’m not opposed to that one. I’m not sure how I feel about rods for Aragon (Spain), as then Maltese Pikes won’t get used. If France becomes the skirmisher card then Spain could stay the cav one.

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without the cassadors there are kinda no skirm units for malta that benefits from the depot ROF ability which kinda makes their lategame gunpowder play bad.

even in treaty there are builds where you go cassadors

Giving malta italian antiskirm would be hella unbalanced, even italy has that balanced by the fact that you cant train them and need the basilica shipments, russia lifeguard jeagers arent trainable either

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Yea I’ve used his lategame build. It’s ok but not really that fun imo. The anti-skirm idea just comes from the fact that that cards already in the files, just unused. But if the French one became voltigers, some other Italian unit would probably be better.

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The promotions are part of the effect of the card, not the own capabilities of the musketeers. Strictly speaking, the French musketeers themselves have no promotion capabilities.
Besides, consulate units + promotions could make things crazy.

But both of them are part of France. They are covered under the the French Tongue card.

I’m not sure why the civ need a buff to livestock and with such a special mechanic when they actually have good mills and infinite wood crates.

If the civ really need a better economy and the population difference is regarded cannot give Ruyters different niche from Dragoons, maybe the Dutch could offer a Bank Wagon, up to 1 and retrainable at Commanderies, or could make Commanderies trickle coin slightly, rather than offering Ruyters.

Pikemen are convenient when paired with Crossbowmen, as they all cost wood and use the same building for training, meaning they cost less to access than Order units and are faster to access than Order units. This is important in supremacy.

To put it simply, Pikemen, Rodeleros and Hospitallers would theoretically have different niches.

I try to remove as many other heavy cavalry as possible so that the Hussars are the only heavy cavalry, since either the Lancers or the Cuirassiers pretty much steal the Hussars’ niche if they are there.

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The idea was that they’d unlock these promotions age 3-4–I also don’t think it’d get to crazy, probably not any higher then the French ones.

I’m trying to make those two Tongues Not fall under one Tongue card so saying “those fall under this” doesn’t make my point void.

I enjoy using rods, but while their role is different from pikes and the Hostpitaler, but it’s still too similar imo for their to be a whole card to enable them.

This is different from the lancer. The lancer has a Very different role from the hussar—worse vs it’s counters and cannons, but ultra hood vs all infantry. I basically never use pikes and rods, but I do use lancers and hussars.

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There is also a version of this where we basically make the Order versions of units more “knightly” then just 10% attack and hp. Like instead of giving lancers 10% attack/Hp and/or cabeleros. You could give them 20% Hp and more armor—maybe even a slightly unique skin showing them with more armor. That kid of thing.

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Me gusta que el envío de lengua rusa mejore las comandancias, pero podría desbloquear al mosquetero del norte en vez del oprichnik.

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Northern Musketeers could be interesting.

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And you still choose musketeers when the civ have Sentinels.

Rodeleros cost coin, diffirent from Pikemen. Use 1 pop, diffirent from Hospitallers. Trainable in Commanderies, diffirent from both Pikemen and Hospitallers. You can use them in very diffirent situation, like using Pikemen to accompany with Crossbowmen, using Rodeleros to counter Pikemen, using Hospitallers to siege and tank…

I don’t think they are too similar, even though they are heavy infantry.

Both Hussars and Lancers cost coin, use 2 pop and in the same buildings, which means basically the way to access Lancers won’t be diffirent from the way to access Hussars, no matter the strategy you use.

I’ve usually seen people switch from Hussars to Lancers for dealing with the infantry, but seldom seen people switch from Lancers to Hussars for dealings with cannons or counters. Cannons are weak against almost every units getting close them, and people just let Lancers push them by the way. Lancers are better than Hussars when facing heavy infantry. On the other hand, people would directly switch from Lancers to other units rather than Hussars when facing Dragoons.

Just saying, I think the niche of Rodeleros is better than Lancers when we talk about enabling unit in Commanderies, though I don’t against a card to ship heavy cavalry.

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I chose musketeers because sentinels are fairly garbage age 4+—plus they actually do have a fairly set role of being a defensive unit, this fairly obvious do to their low siege.

I don’t think the proper way to tell similarity between units is their cost and cost type, but rather what role they fulfill. Rods just feel like to niche of a role that’s not different enough from the other Maltese units.

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I think cost types and training buildings are also part of role. These are about what kind of strategy the unit can play better with, and also about what kind of build order the unit need to arrange their economy to afford the cost.

Maybe this is where I am different from you, therefore I prefer Rodeleros rather than Lancers, and you are just the opposite.
Everyone has their own opinion.