Mongols don’t need any buff even if they reduced their bonus vs trebs or siege in general, they are a decent civ anytime
Totally agree. Steppe lancers need a buff anyway
I didn’t say that i want to nerf the mangudai by all sides, i just suggested to be nerfed against trebs and reduce their bonus vs siege by only 1 and i know that “1” is not even enough they still able to melt every single siege in seconds. It is even weird that you said that their bonus is ok vs rams but actually for me no it is not. Rams should be the strongest siege unit against all ranged units even the Mangudai
how would they even do this, the mangudai only has 1 bonus stat, they would need to create a separate treb class or give it bonus armour which then affects all other anti siege units
and gosh man spam much? 4 separate posts because you’re too lazy to edit one and reply all there?
yet hypocritically you want devs to bend over backwards to accommodate this weird request of reworking mangudai and trebs…
he said buff them if the mangudai is nerfed , which makes sense
Their bonus against siege and trebs is very strong especially with the ROF that the mangudai already have. My topic was only to remove their effect against trebs at least and reduce it a little against rams
Where did i spam this?! This is my only post about mangudai!
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Huskarls are melee unit which do only one thing well: counter archers. Champions, knights and all decent melee units wreck them. Cataphracts are prohibitively expensive (in fact they are almost never used) and still not that good against archers. They have significant downsides for each of their strong points.
In the meantime mangudais have 12 base attack, fast attack, mobility and bonus against siege. That’s way too much on a single unit. What do you do against them if your civ has bad skirms and no paladin? Camels just get murdered by mangudais too.
I disagree, mangudais already are cavalry archers on steroids. There’s not a single thing that CA do better then mangudais, aside being easier to mass. More damage, fire faster, bonus against siege…where’s the downside of the unit in there? How often do you see mongols go CAs? There is no reason to, when you have mangudais, which do everything better. Huskarls are worse than champions in melee, longbows are less accurate then arbalester, kipchaks have less hp than CA and so on…UUs should have also their own downsides. Mangudais do not have any, beyond the fact that they are only produced by castles.
Which is why you always have a hussar meatshield in front in the late game. That way melee units will never touch you, unless they are paladins.
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Mangudai have +3 (+5 elite), it will not be a problem to make it +2/+4 i don’t even think it will make a difference especially when you mass the mangudai and no mongols don’t need any sort of buff instead
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Rams are there to tank arrow fire, they are not meant to counter ranged by themselves. That is different from onagers, which purpose gets basically denied by the unit they are supposed to counter.
In general the Mangudai bonus against trebs and siege is sick and they should do something about it; from +3(+5) to +2(+4 or even+3) will not be that big difference. Actually it is weird how the devs nerfed the Kipchaks 2 times and left the Mangudai as it is until now! Kipchaks got nerfed in his arrows and his frame delay, and Cumans don’t have bracer and it is the weakest CA in the game, maybe you will say it is fine since Cumans have good eco (2TCs feudal which is actually useless in feudal in my opinion) and FU paladins, but even Cumans are way easier to counter than mangudai, and actually Cumans now in the lowest civs winrate lately
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Well, we already have HCAs that can beat Mangudai in one-on-one fight in the game such as Magyars and Turks/Tatars HCA when fully upgraded. Mangudai can win FU HCA (such as Saracens/Indians) but just barely, with much hard to mass and slightly more expensive.
Mongols lacking last armor is the downside of mangudai. Just like Britons lacking Thumb Ring and their archer line and Longbow is less accurate and firing slower.
Slavs and Burmese come to mind that civ with lacking good skirms and Paladin. But slavs have much better castle age and can win in castle age before Mongols player get almost FU Mangudai. Might be tricky for Burmese but Arambai is better in castle age that they can function without upgrade but Mangudai need Fletching/Bodkin and Ballistics to function. Still have a chance in castle age.
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Wrong they have 8 base attack.
He means FU which is 12 (8+4)
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But that’s not base attack. That’s base attack + upgrades.
In this exact circumstance I agree unconditionally with Equalizer938341.
Mangudai are absurdly strong. Having Trebs be countered by them gives an opposing enemy no options to actually assault the castle clear of the threat of the Mangudai. You can mass more trebuchets to take the fight and remove castles quickly, but that gives the Mongols the initiative in treb wars to start the pressure while you build up a mass. Reducing the the bonus on specifically trebs will not affect their general use case and they’ll still be a monster unit, but it’ll incentivize the Mongols to put scouts or knights on the field in order to defend the Mongol Castle.
Right now the Mangudai is not the unit that needs to get nerfed. It’s the Mongol Castle. It makes a Mangudai which is the ultimate defender of the Mongol Castle. Nerfing just the bonus damage against trebs will still keep most of it’s potential but nerf it in the specific way it’s overtuned, in defending the most crucial limb of the Mongol gameplan.
Clarify, I do not support nerfing the Mangudai’s general anti-siege bonus. Some armor class shenanigans should happen to facilitate a reduction to the Mangudai’s bonus damage against trebs without neutering it’s general anti-siege. If that’s somehow not possible, forget it.
By the looks of it, however, you could simply reduce the melee armor of unpacked trebs and increase the siege armor of the unpacked trebuchets by the same amount and that change would only affect the Mangudai. So I see absolutely no reason not to do this at least a bit. That’ll make any unit that specifically does anti-Siege damage to have unchanged damage (because the only unit that does so with pierce attack is the Mangudai) and outside of making Trebs very slightly weaker to general assault from melee units without a siege attack bonus (Eagles have an anti-siege bonus, so non-eagle, non Magyar Huszar melee units) it’ll have no other adverse effect.
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My bad, I meant FU attack.
You are comparing Mangudais with other civs CAs though. Other civs have also to pay for their unique upgrades. Moreover, in the late game you will always have a meatshield of hussars in front of your mangudais (and you can also add siege ram if you want), so good luck to skirms and archers. Again, what you would need as a counter here is onagers…which get counter but mangudais with minimal effort, unless you have a ton of them.
If you consider upgrade cost, you also have to consider Tatars/Turks save so much resource to get FU HCA with Free Chemistry or Free Thumb Ring/Partian Tactics. So their upgrade cost to get FU HCA is barely similar to upgrade cost of mangudai (Elite Mangudai upgrade cost is also more expensive than HCA upgrade). Getting Magyars HCA is slightly more expensive than Mangudai, but they can also pair with Magyar Huszar, which is also great anti-seige Unit.
Mongols Hussar also lacking last armor and not an ideal unit to counter archers/Skirms. Those weaknesses make mongols not broken, just good civ, and generally not considered s-tier civ in either open or closed map (Except in Hunt-heavy map). Also getting all Elite Mangudai, and Hussar/Seige Ram is not an option in early imp. You cannot get all of those composition easily.
I think UU should be bit stronger than generic unit because getting UU is hard and risky due to the limitation by castle production. Mangudai is expensive and not good against ranged unit compared to other civ HCA, so it should need other strength to reward investing early in stone to get enough castle production, which is always challenging. Also remember Mangudai is very slow to train (nearly half minute).
Back in AoC, Mangudai can win all other HCA, and have 0 frame dealy, but frame delay was introduced and many other good HCA that can beat mangudai was also introduced. In my opinion, people just remember the old day mangudai and still think the current state of mangudai is also broken.
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Onagers and especially siege onagers are still a damn good counter to mangudai. You’re saying like mangudai completely counter SO which is far from the truth. Mangudai do punk mangonels and also onagers in small numbers but mass onagers and SO are still a great trouble for mangudai who’re outranged. Halb siege onager is the best counter to late game Mongols in fact.
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They’re great units, certainly true, but they’re in no need of a nerf. They are expensive, require a castle to be made, produce slowly, and require a dozen upgrades from 5(!) different buildings. They start to lose effectiveness pretty quickly later in the game, when micro becomes less effective and feasible. There are plenty of ways to counter them throughout a game (skirms, archers, onagers, Eagles), and the Mongols’ somewhat limited playbook means that it’s fairly easy to anticipate and prepare for Mangudai showing up eventually.
The numbers agree-- in all but the highest levels of play (1650+), the Mongols sport a win rate below 50%, indicating that they would be better suited to receive a buff rather than a nerf.
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Halb Siege Onagers is a menacing Death Ball that everyone should add to their playbook. I use it a ton.