May'20 Civs Patched?

[CactusSteak2171]

I forgot about this, oopsie!

[CactusSteak2171]

@SirFwosti

Foot [Archer] cost [Food] instead of [Gold].
for the Vietnamese.

This is a HUGE nerf in Feudal, because the whole point of an archer rush is military agression without spending food, it’s still a nerf in Castle since you need food to develop your eco and gold is faster to get, and then in Imp it becomes crazy OP because skirms definitely wouldn’t be cost effective against Rattans that cost food 11 Even if it was Arbs only it would be Kamandaran on steroids. So basically it’s an horrendous idea that would just ruin the civ.

@SirFwosti

[Castle] and [Stable] units move 5% faster for each relic collected (3% per relic for [Trebuchets]). Maximum 15% faster. Stacks with [Squires].

Teuton trebs have Ironclad, u don’t want them to be faster on top of that. Scouts are still going to suck so who cares, and the Teuton Knight-line not only has all other upgrades but is also more resistant to conversion so I don’t think putting speed on top of that is OK. Only the TK could deserve such a buff if devs are ok with ripping off Lithuanian.

@SirFwosti

I’ve also seen it suggested that RattanArchers inherit a bonus vs Archers/CavArchers and Pikes like Skirmishers do.

Why tho? they already get anti-spear bonus and Rattan already destroy archers.

@SirFwosti

This still leaves much to be desired, but it’s a more balanced/careful change than buffing their FootArcher movespeed. I still think +10% faster FootArchers for Vietnamese would be ok.

But the Viet bonus is fine too. Why fix it if it isn’t broken?

@SirFwosti

They are just underutilized and outshined by Archers with CivBonus/TeamBonus that nearly always exclude Skirmishers (and the Imp Skirm upgrade is a TeamBonus)

Briton team bonus includes Skirms (and it’s a really good bonus) And as far as team games go, Vietnamese get Battle Elephants (which makes them good at pocket) their Arbs make them more than qualified at flank, they have Paper money (not the greatest thing but still nice) and they can flare enemy starting locations to their teammates. So Viet are fine there too.

@SirFwosti

Vietnamese themselves also hardly have any opportunity to utilize them efficiently unless they’ve run out of all sources of gold

Well, according to this logic Kamandaran, Forced Levy and Corvinian army would be bad upgrades, and yet they actually are god-tier.

[Fwosti1080]

@CactusSteak2171

Why tho? they already get anti-spear bonus and Rattan already destroy archers.

The bonus vs spearmen they get is actually lower than the one standard archer gets vs spearmen.

The Ratan Archers are extremely expensive (too expensive especially considering Vietnamese don’t get GoldShaftMining).
Vietnamese military is still lacking despite the recent upgrade to eco via the wood bonus.
It doesn’t really matter if the RattanArcher unit is changed or something else, but a move should be made. I’m not noticing Vietnamese matching up well especially when compared to other Archer civs.

[Fwosti1080]

Kamandaran and Corvinian Army are bad upgrades compared to some others. Kamandaran is the nerfupgrade because BoilingOil was too good. Corvinian Army saves 10g for an-already-really-good unit. Woohoo.

(Everyone keeps putting words in my mouth) I have explicitly stated twice that Imperial Skirmishers are good upgrades. They could be better without being OP – Since Vietnamese need some attention and this is a TeamBonus perhaps it should be better.

I have to note though I find it rather amusing that even though you drew a false conclusion from my opinions you still accurately pointed to British, Persians, and Magyars as easily overpowering or outshining Vietnamese with superior Archery and well-balanced Tech. Lul.

[JonOli12]

@SirFwosti

Kamandaran and Corvinian Army are bad upgrades compared to some others. Kamandaran is the nerfupgrade because BoilingOil was too good. Corvinian Army saves 10g for an-already-really-good unit.

You cannot seriously belive this.

Is this a troll thread?

[JoJo9942]

You’re kidding right? Boiling oil is trash lol. The bonus only applied to first arrow. Also rams don’t typically engage castles unless it’s a push of like 10 rams in which case, the Persian bonus isn’t helping at all

Also, 10 gold is still a lot and you’re guaranteed to make more than 30 huszars in most games

[JoJo9942]

@SirFwosti

The bonus vs spearmen they get is actually lower than the one standard archer gets vs spearmen.

Arbs have +3 and rattans have +2, which is compensated by rattan’s higher natural attack

@SirFwosti

The Ratan Archers are extremely expensive (too expensive especially considering Vietnamese don’t get GoldShaftMining).

Vietnamese military is still lacking despite the recent upgrade to eco via the wood bonus.

They cost 45 gold like most foot archers, only the wood cost is double.
And lacking in what way? They have halbs, elephants, cavaliers and they only lack blast furnace. They also get bombard cannons with siege engineers

[CactusSteak2171]

@SirFwosti

I’m not noticing Vietnamese matching up well especially when compared to other Archer civs

They literally can just spam Rattans all day and force these civs to stop archer production. In NAC3, Antagonist used pre-buffed Viets to woop his opponent (DauT if I remember well) who insisted on spamming Plumes (ie.the best archer)

@SirFwosti

I have explicitly stated twice that Imperial Skirmishers are good upgrades . They could be better without being OP

But if it is good, why buff it? That’s just not logical.

@SirFwosti

I have to note though I find it rather amusing that even though you drew a false conclusion from my opinions you still accurately pointed to British, Persians, and Magyars as easily overpowering or outshining Vietnamese with superior Archery and well-balanced Tech. Lul.

Nah nah nah. You said:

@SirFwosti

They are just underutilized and outshined by Archers with CivBonus/TeamBonus that nearly always exclude Skirmishers (and the Imp Skirm upgrade is a TeamBonus).

Ie. you complain about Skirmishers not benefiting enough from team bonuses. So I mentioned the Briton team bonus that does benefit the Imp Skirms and is very good. Anyway the only archer team bonus that doesn’t apply to skirm is the Magyar one. And frankly, who cares about +2 LoS on skirms in a team game? If you want teammates that have good bonuses for their own Imp skirms, you can choose among Aztecs, Briton, Byzantine, Incas, Lithuanian. And even if your teammate has bad skirms you’re nullifying their weakness, which is pretty good.

Regarding other archer civs being “better” at archers, it’s not that big of a deal. There is always going to be an archer civ that is less “good at archers” anyway.

[Hardform]

I can’t be arsed to read the thread, sorry, since there is already a thread for general balance changes talk and many for civ specific too.

All I’ll be saying on the topic is, crenelletions could make teuton towers have +1 range so they get the “max” range like most other civs (their damage would still be lower) and also their bombard tower wouldn’t be so useless (cause right now, you can counter it with just your own if you have them in your tech tree).