[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

For treaty it’s slightly offset by the fact that you need to give up some other eco or unit upgrade. And you’d still be able to cut off access to the units by taking out their control of settlements.

Bit of a controversial take, but what if trading posts themselves were free, with significantly reduced health (like -66% health)? It would shift the power budget towards making Native units more expensive and stronger overall while simultaneously allowing players to build them early before making important deck decisions. More expensive Natives would prevent them from being used as super fast rush units, and allow them to be more use in longer games as they no longer get out-scaled by normal units. It would also make the cards that deal with Natives more useful overall, as both techs and units become more powerful.

For trade routes, make players buy the ability to trade a specific resource for a small amount of the other two resources - IE to unlock trading food, pay 75 coin/wood, to unlock coin, pay 75 food/wood, to unlock wood, pay 75 food/coin.

It would allow Natives to be used more in the early game and give them more strength in the later game, where they’re sorely lacking.

Pretty much. Unfortunately there is no way to make a TP cheaper in native settlements socket. That’s the best way to make alliance viable. Even reducing the cost would cause no impact.

Completely agree with you. 250%!
I fully agree with you that the “.zip” style of design has got to stop (as well as the “shipment frenzy” that started with USA).

Completely disagree with you.
Embassy is a conditional/situational/exclusive building: If there is one thing that deserves to have an easier access, that thing is an embassy, because of the “chain of things that has to happen” as Dansil and I had said.
What DOESN’T need to be delivered as wagon are simple and ordinary buildings, but that’s not with me. :tipping_hand_man:

The problem of everything being packed as a travois is with the devs’ way of balance/design. Imo several things have been (unnecessarily) given as wagons and unfortunately anything new still keeps coming as such with no need at all.

My suggestion of letting a conditional/situational/exclusive building as a wagon, with a laughable build limit of 3, as a travois, from said requirement is legit.

I had thought of that as well and there are three problems: Trade monopoly + cards that affect TPs + the fact that embassies are used as saloons for Major Natives. This idea breaks them all.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
I have even suggested that in a few topics. I like you because we think alike about (most of) the things regarding balance.

Most of those aren’t really a problem. Just have the monopoly go by occupied sockets and cards affect both. There’s already an embassy build limit (those built on sockets shouldn’t count towards that) so even if cards like Advanced Trade Post give them an attack and more health it’s not like you can spam them.

The saloon role is a very slight issue but nothing that can’t be worked around. Just make it so when built on a socket, embassies act exactly how trade posts currently do and when built on their own they can train all allied natives and outlaws for major natives just like they do now.

Trade Posts already do two completely different things depending on where they are built. There’s no reason Embassies can’t be made to do two similar but slightly different functions depending on where they are built (and simplify Trade Posts to one function).

Or: just separate Native Trading Post aside of Route Trading Post. Absolutely nothing changes except the cost. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: 1000x times more simple and straightforward than all the things you mentioned. TPs already pull their function based on the socket. So have one to natives and one to route. Easy peazy.

Most of those aren’t really a problem

All those workarounds you said mess with so many variables and make things so unnecessarily more complex :slightly_smiling_face::
It messes with models (the socket doesn’t match the Embassy), it messes with Trade monopoly, it makes cards about TPs even more situational, it confuses players because embassy on socket wouldn’t count, it messes with the function (because embassies already have dual function and it is not coded for that)…

Trade Posts already do two completely different things depending on where they are built.

Good you agree with me. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
TP is already two buildings working as one. Nothing more simple than cloning it and locking one to natives(NTP) and the other one to routes(RTP).

I might be wrong but

Trust me: I’ve thought A LOT about this issue man.
I still don’t see a simpler way to promote natives than reducing the cost of NTPs. And there is no way of doing that unless they clone a TP and set their functions apart (if there is one, I’m down for it! ).

To me that’s the way more complicated way to do it. There’s already a building for training units of your alliances, it’s the embassy. The building already does the function you want, so why create a new one and introduce more problems with the build grid?

It’s also far more intuitive. In real life, embassies are built in the home country and the country you want to establish relations with. This is how what I’m proposing would work.

Trade posts currently have no overlap in function between the different types. Embassies would actually have consistency between functions.

It’s quite a simple setup:

  • Embassy built on a settlement - Can train only that tribe’s units and research techs

  • Embassies built off a settlement - Can train all allied tribe’s units (and outlaws for natives) but no techs

  • Build limit off a settlement is 1 per allied tribe. Natives could have +1 to their limit to allow access to outlaws.

As for your other issues:

  • Not fitting the socket should be an easy fix

  • There’s no reason this would change how trade monopolies work

  • Wagons can just build both buildings. The trade post wagons for USA and Ethiopians can already be used to build a variety of different buildings to make them less situational

  • It’s less confusing because that is the actual function of an embassy and it’s less of a dual function than trade posts currently are

It’s also far more intuitive

That’s why an embassy travois from TPs and TCs would make sense

Embassy is just a building to replicate any units far away from the base. And we both know TPs and embassies are quite different and it’s much easier to clone it and lock one to each kind of socket, making actually more solutions and addressing old problems.
But I’m down to any idea as long as it solves our problems with natives viability. :innocent:

It’s okay you don’t like travois because there are too many right now but don’t blame my idea:
Blame the guy in the design team that likes to add wagons as souvenirs to every single card and technology when he creates a new civilization. :joy: :joy: :joy:. That will not stop that guy. Next civ will be full of Autobots whether you like it or not :joy: :joy:

But let’s go back to new/more improvements only because you’ve given good feedback on that. Our brainstorming has yield some ideas to the developers who hopefully have read out hot replies :pray:

I believe that there is no need to make any kind of modification to the commercial positions. I think that with some passive benefit, such as with the consulate, it would be enough.

The cost of the natives could be gold in case of using firearms or knives, and wood in case of using bows, clubs and the like.

1 Like

CHEYENNE
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CHEYENNE: Cheyenne | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

OVERVIEW: Overall a good civ that needs just a few adjustments. I also hope Rider gets a new bonus effect and is swapped with Dog Soldier (since this one belongs to Cheyenne and not Lakota).

NEW TECHS

  • Cheyenne Military Society (350f, 350c)​: Cheyenne Military Societies will reinforce your army.
    New Effect: Delivers 1 Cheyenne Rider for every 2 military shipments/mercenary shipments you have sent so far. From now on delivers 2 Cheyenne Rider with every military shipment/Merc shipment you ship from your HC.
    Why:​ By “military shipments” read as “any Home city shipment cards that come from The Warrior, The Fortress, Military Academy…”. I see it as a militar reinforcement from their Tribal Council when you call out for help from your Home City. I just couldn’t think of a good name.

Lore: Cheyenne military societies and the Council of Forty-four are the two central institutions of traditional Cheyenne native American tribal governance. The headmen of military societies are in charge of maintaining discipline within the tribe, overseeing tribal hunts and ceremonies, and providing military leadership. Cheyenne Military Societies.

  • Cheyenne Council (400f, 200c)​: The influence and guidance of the Council provide resources that were once thought as lost.
    New Effect: Delivers the shipment bonus of a random politician from Fortress Age of your civ. Available on Fortress Age
    Why:​ I wanted to praise the authority and secular strength of the Council of 44. I see it as Cheyenne having such a political power that they can “pull” a shipment from one of the 5 members from the traditional Tribal Council.
    E.g: If you were playing as Lakota: it can be either 800w, 12 bisons, 1000f or 2 Tokala (any fast age up, gather bonus and/or cards are nulified= won’t be considered as bonus shipment).

Lore: Council of Forty-four: Council chiefs are generally older men who command wide respect. Historically, they were responsible for day-to-day matters affecting the tribe as well as the maintenance of peace both within and without the tribe by force of their moral authority. Council of Forty-four -wikipedia

  • Cheyenne Reinforcement (200f, 200c)​: Follow Cheyenne warriors to make cavalry hit harder.
    New Effect: Heavy cavalry gain +20% siege damage and +10% hand damage. Shock Infantry gain +10% more siege damage and +10% hand damage.
    Why: It’s a straightforward bonus envolving siege and raiding but it feels stacked. I thought of moving it to Apache, but “Apache Bands” (more coin for every building destroyed) felt more suitable.
    Lore: Like many other plains Indian nations, the Cheyenne were a horse and warrior people who developed as skilled and powerful mounted warriors Cheyenne - wikipedia

REWORKED TECHS

  • Cheyenne Fury (350w, 350c)​: Cheyenne Rider multipliers vs. cavalry +1.5x and vs. shock infantry +1.0x
    REWORK: I’d like to see a new design for Cheyenne Riders/Fury because there are far too many counters to cavalry who are better nowadays. Long time ago this tech was unique (and good) but 15 years later I can’t feel any spark on it.
4 Likes

I hadn’t come up with a new unit for the Hurons, but I thought maybe it could be an inexpensive unit:

Huron Birchbark Canoes
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Cheap and weak transportation (75 wood), but fast and also useful for fishing and exploring. You can create it from the trading post (in addition to the dock) and it will appear at the destination of the naval metropolis. (Limit 5, but does not cost population) You will be given one for free when you ally with the Hurons for the first time.

It cannot attack, but it generates a slight income of coins (0.20 / s) (Improves + 0.20 / s with each age advance), since it was useful for trading.
Available from age 1, so you can get hold of the water very quickly.

4 Likes

I feel like there’s a lot misunderstanding going on here lmao - Just to clarify, the smaller canoe already in the game is a birchbark canoe, while the larger War Canoe is modeled off the Haida gelwa.

Neither is particularly accurate, but they’re decent enough. If you wanted a more economic, cheap, canoe to add for Native allies, the dugout canoe would be the canoe to add. That, and the bull boat would be a good, solely-economic naval unit to add.

3 Likes

I thought the standard canoe was a molded log of wood.

I also had no idea about these details of canoes. :sweat_smile:

The same could be a canoe with the role that I proposed, since this only depends on the function assigned to it. The hussars, for example, had firearms and nevertheless appeared as a mele unit.

UDASI

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UDASI: Udasi Temple | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Overview
Pretty mediocre minor civilization with pretty uninteresting and situational effects. The focus is giving them much more variety while adapting sikh culture and applying to both the unit and the lore.

NEW TECHS

  • Langar (150f, 150c)​: Sikh community kitchen provides a steady income of food to your people
    New Effect: Gives a trickle 1.2 food/s. For each Udasi Temple you control increase this food trickle by 0.6 food.
    Why:​ I had made one like this, but for coin. This one promotes the maintainance of the alliance (1.8f) since it provides less income if you lose their trading post. It cost food so you can only see the benefit quite some time after .

Lore: “A langar is the community kitchen of a gurdwara (place of assembly and worship for Sikhs), which serves meals to all free of charge, regardless of religion, caste, gender, economic status, or ethnicity. The meals served at a langar are always vegetarian.”
Langar_(Sikhism)

  • Udasi Science of Weapons (200w, 200c)​: Build this alliance so the Sikh can set up bootcamps and train your army more efficiently.
    New Effect: Ships 2 military rickshaws (builds barracks, stables, War Hut…). Train time of all military units -5%.
    Why:​This technology promotes the discipline and respect of Shastar Vidya. Udasi also lacks military improvements, so this one is pretty straightforward and attractive to any civilization.
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Lore: “Sanatan Shastar Vidya” is a centuries-old Indian battlefield art which translates to “the science of weapons”. Since the mid-16th century, the Sikh tribes of the Punjab became the chief custodians and masters of this fighting system. In North India it is believed that this art is the father of all martial arts. Shastar Vidya

  • Gatka (250w, 250c)​: Sikh martial arts are taught to your soldiers.
    New Effect: All land Siege Units cost -10% wood and do 20% more siege damage. Siege troopers also gain 20% more HP.
    Why:​ Siege unit is a class rare to be mentioned in natives sites, specially siege troopers. Chakram is one of the few siege troopers in the game and the only one belonging to a native site, therefore they gain an extra buff.
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Lore: "Gatka is a form of martial art associated primarily with the Sikhs of the Punjab and other related ethnic groups. It has been handed down in an unbroken lineage of Ustads (masters), and taught in many akharas (arenas) around the world.
Gatka was employed in the Sikh wars and has been thoroughly battle tested. It originates from the need to defend dharam (righteousness), but is also based on the unification of the spirit and body (miri piri). It is, therefore, generally considered to be both a spiritual and physical practise.
Shastar Vidya

REWORKED TECHS

  • Punjabi New Year: Villagers gather from Mills, Farms, Rice Paddies, and Plantations 10% faster; Livestock fattens 10% faster when tasked to Livestock Pens, Farms, and Villages;
    New Effect: Also: crates deliver 10% more resources. Cost goes up to 250f, 250c.
    Why This technology is not impressive at all. Having “+10%” for something else.
5 Likes

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It would be great if you added the Guaycuru peoples as a minor civilization on South American maps, and added a horseman who fights this way.

3 Likes

Hey that’s exactly the same way Lakota cavalry would fire their bows

APACHE
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APACHE: Apache | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Overview: It’s “ok”. Not great, not bad. The technologies are useful but generic. It’s one of the most obvious examples that having more than 3 techs would consolidate them as “good”.
D.E. nerfed their bonus vs villagers but nowadays I can’t see a player using Apache Raiders, killing vils and being labeled as "broken"nowadays.

NEW TECHS

  • Apacheria (175f, 150c)​: Know that this region is controlled by the Apaches as they go out for food.
    New Effect: Delivers up to three random livestock animals whose total food is equal to 300. Boost hunting gather rate by 10%. Your next economic tech at a economic building (e.g: market, livestock pen, estate, rice paddy, granary…) is 50% cheaper.
    Why:​ This one nice because you can combo with Navajo techs. It was supposed to be limited to hunts and livestock but some civilizations have buildings with everything altogether (Mexico), so it wouldn’t be fair.
    It delivers “X” sheeps and/or cows, HOWEVER the sum of all their stored food is equal to 300 food.
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Lore: “Apachería was the term used to designate the region inhabited by the Apache people. They obtained food from four main sources: hunting wild animals, gathering wild plants, growing domesticated plants or trading with or raiding neighboring tribes for livestock and agricultural products”
Apache - wikipedia

  • Apache Band Raids (200w, 200c)​: The raids are more intense as the Apache collect bounties and values.
    New Effect: Everytime you destroy buildings controlled by your enemies, you earn coin equal to half of their wood cost.
    Why:​ Just to ackownledge their raiding, however the effect is rather “shy” so it is applied by any of your units and not only Apache Cavalry.
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Lore: “Local groups comprised loose confederations called bands. The bands were territorial units, not formal political groups. Historically, the Apache had raided enemy tribes and sometimes each other, for livestock, food or captives. They raided with small parties, for a specific economic purpose”.
Apache Wars - wikipedia

  • Apache Sentinels (400f, 400c)​: Apache sentinels inform you they are aware of enemies and ready to surprise them.
    New Effect: For 45s:
    Your land units (except siege units) take 15% less damage and gain +6 LOS (if they are under your Town Center’s LOS they take -30% instead). Delivers 3 Apache Sentinels and increases the damage of all Apache Cavalry/Sentinels by 10% (Apache Sentinels are Apache Cavalry with +2 range/LOS).

    Why:​ This idea is inspired by the Dionysius’s Bronze god power of AOM: it is meant to be a defensive technology but it might be used offensively too. The concept is having Sentinels that will inform you of enemies and help you to fight. Think of it like a “Minutemen”.
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Lore: " In 19th-century confrontations during the American-Indian wars, the U.S. Army found the Apache to be fierce warriors and skillful strategists."
Apache Wars- wikipedia

REWORKED TECHS

  • Apache Raiders (Apache Cavalry multiplier vs. villager +1.0x):
    Rework: Multiplier goes to 1.5x or vanilla’s x2. OR the bonus is 1.5x bonus on Commerce Age and becomes 2x on Fortress Age and beyond.
    Why: It could’ve been a good balance in Vanilla but D.E. has so many things way over the top that it became obsolete:
    Raiding with Apache Raiders’ 33 bonus dmg with the sole porpose of killing villagers nowadays with so many skirmishes, Musks, Forts, buildings with garrison and Towers is just a dream. When you reach Fortress Age this tech DRASTICALLY loses its value.
2 Likes

And Comanche!

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For South America, native units of cavalry and firearms are needed.

This, and the rank of 18 of the Cree must return.

1 Like