[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

I don’t think that’s a fair evaluation. Each batch of Klamath gives you 5/3rds of a villager’s gathering rate that can be produced independently of the town centre and don’t cost population. And when they’re not gathering, they’re strong enough to somewhat fight back. That’s better than the Huntsman in my opinion.

The Klamath Strategy tech could use a boost though since their base attack is so low. Maybe it could give them passive healing too. That would let them contribute to battle but then recover as they go back to gathering.

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I’d personally like to see a Dakota or Ojibwe Native that would fit into the Dakota and surrounding maps. The Cheyenne there are out of place and there’s not really another Native post currently in the game that would work.

You can have only two batches of Klamath at max…

With the wood you’d spend on them you’d have enough wood to build 3 houses and get + 30 population for 30 vills. Almost ten times the amount of space worth your Klamath to build actual 30 villagers.
And half the wood used for a new town center.

What I said above + the fact that they CAN’T gather hunts or mine on top of gathering HALF of all the remaining resources, completely undermine their value. Farming & woodcutting are already the slowest resources.

When they are not gathering, they are weak enough to die if you decide to stay put and trade shots instead of running away.

135 HP and 6 hand attack for them?
A single villager has 150HP and get +35% HP for just 75 food.

[quote="M00Z1LLA, post:413, topic:169231] they’re strong enough to somewhat fight back
[/quote]

With 10 ranged damage, 16 range and bonus they will only harm musks, but not enough since they have a train limit of 10 and most likely they won’t even be altogether in the same place when being rushed. Vs goons they actually do pretty well.

Well, ethics and strategy were not outstanding techs. Now they’ve been downgraded even further because of Klamath Rifleman rework.

I don’t think that’s a fair evaluation

For supremacy at least, Klamath are not worth the time and resources in my opinion.

Isn’t that pretty standard for a Skirmisher?

That’s sounds pretty reasonable for a Skirmisher that can gather resources. You’d be using them to supplement your army, not as the the entire force.

I don’t think they’re as wildly out of balance as you initially implied, but I agree they’re probably overpriced. I’d drop them down to 80f 30w (from 100f 30w). And Klamath Strategy needs a buff if their base attack is so low.

Alright, I know it’s a little late but I wanted to give my thoughts on all the recent changes not natives and native techs.

Totenkopf Hussar: starts with Death Strike charged but takes 8 strikes instead of 4. - I think this is a solid change. It makes the first engagement from them much more threatening and hopefully speeds up their promotions. This is especially good for the shipment of 7 Totenkopf Malta has.

Royal Scots Grey: effect changed to "Totenkopf Hussar’s Death strike now takes 4 hits to charge - Given the change above was this tech’s previous effect, this change is sensible.

Austro-Hungarian Empire: cost reduced from 500f 500c to 375f 375c - A good change. This tech was pretty rare to pick up, now it’s a bit more affordable. Remember in the beta when this was priced 1000f 1000c? It definitely isn’t worth that much for 1 Hungarian Grenadier every 5 minutes.

Royal Tax: now grants 35c per building - Despite what the tooltip says, this tech is working as described. And it was already a good tech but now it’s an even better deal. Keep an eye out for this one if you’re a civ that housebooms.

Filiki Etreria: cost reduced from 1000c to 800c - Another rare tech esp in supremacy. I kinda wonder why they set it to 750c if they were reducing it already. There was a clear theme before of the cost increasing for Athos techs (250c > 500c > 1000c) so they could’ve salvaged that into a similar but different progression (250c > 500c > 750c), and tbh I don’t think an extra 50c discount would be a massive breakpoint to make this an op tech in 1v1.

Northern Musketeer: build limit increased from 12 to 16 - No complaints, Northern Musk seemed the most underwhelming of the trainable RH Musk, so it was weird to me how they had the lowest build limit.

Trabant: gains a Charged pistol attack; melee attack increased from 15 to 22, multipliers adjusted accordingly; cost increased to 60f 70c - After Royal Arquebusiers got their promotion, it made sense the Trabant was the next under-powered unit to get tuned up. The pistol attack is nice, but the melee increase is really what does it. Now it’s no longer a weird middle between the pike and halb, but a halb with extra goodies. The +10f cost is just compensation imo.

Royal Saxon Grenadiers: cost reduced from 600c to 500c - Another discount, and a decent enough tech to get one. Now it cleanly pays for itself after 1 shipment rather than a dangling 100c extra.

Sharktooth Bowman: now benefits from target lock feature; attacks faster the closer the target is - It seems like everytime the devs turn to a legacy archer, they take the chance to give them target lock. I suppose if the intent is to make it a universal feature then fair enough. I’m kinda confused why they decided to give them the faster attacking gimmick some African units have. But with these changes plus the ones to Seminole techs, the Sharktooth has gotten much scarier, and I already thought it was underrated.

Guerilla Wars: increases Sharktooth siege range by +6 (for 16 total) and cost increased to 350f 350c - An, interesting change. I’ve suggested alterations to this tech before, but as we’ll see with the next tech, rather than branch out the devs have decided to quadruple down Seminole as being singularly focused on the Sharktooth Bowman. In this case, now the Sharktooth can destroy entire towns even more safely (remember from the start of DE they had +4 range from TAD, including their siege range). The only shame of it is Guerilla War already felt expensive to pick up, but now it’s prohibitive for a rush. This was probably just compensation, but I hope it gets a discount to 300f 300c at some point.

Seminole Invincibles: for 225f 225c Sharktooth gain +10% hp and a slow regeneration of 2.5hp per sec - Well the third tech for Seminole is here, and it was nothing like what I was asking for! Kidding aside, this is yet another buff for the Sharktooth. The hp bump is nice but not significant. The regeneration tho, while not impactful during fights, will make a huge difference between fights. Unlike Hero regeneration, this does continue during combat and while moving so it is always in play.

Maya Pyramids: delivers 1 Maya Castle Travois, which can construct a powerful defensive building - speaking of new third techs, Mayans got one as well. I’ve made my suggestions here as well, namely a tweaked AoE 2 bonus, but once again the devs have a surprise. I don’t mind this one terribly tho, it’s certainly something Mayans didn’t offer before and stands out in a good way.

Klamath: completely reworked. 100f 30w; can gather wood, berries, and treasures; -100hp -6 ranged attack, but +2.5x guardians and -negative multies vs cav and shock inf. - Well the new Klamath is here, and I’m not sure I like it. Tbh, I didn’t have a problem with them being so similar to Cherokee, but if I was the one to rework them this is definitely not the direction I’d have gone. To keep it brief, I think at the moment the Rifleman is an underwhelming military unit and economic unit, and I think it will be seen less often than before, not more.

Klamath Work Ethos: now also affects Klamath Riflemen - This is a sensible change given the Klamath rework, but tbh in that capacity it’s negligible since a) the Klamath are so few in number and b) their base gather rates are already so low (their wood chopping goes from .20 a second to .21). As well, this does nothing to address the previous complaint in this thread and elsewhere that it’s an overpriced tech with an underwhelming effect, a complaint which tbf the devs may have thoughtfully considered and rejected.

Huckleberry Feast: now comes with an additional Tiny Food crate every 3 minutes (effectively from 100f to 150f) - I think I have to apologize about this one, since this is more or less the change I suggested, only I didn’t realize how messy it would be in game. So many crates on the floor you can’t get to your TC. Still, this increases the value of this tech a lot which is good. I still don’t get why they didn’t change the time interval from 3 minutes to 2 tho, that seems the most straightforward fix.

Tupi Poison Arrow Frogs & Carib Kasiri Beer: now Blackwood Archers and Blowgunners respectively gain poison damage - Since this was basically the same change I decided to combine them. I know a lot of people in this thread clamored for this change, and well here you go. Tbh it seems more symbolic than anything as from testing the extra poison damage is rather negligible, maybe only an extra 2 damage per attack. Which is fine, since these were already decently strong units where a major buff would be unwarranted, unlike the Incan Jungle Bowman which was designed from the ground up to have poison be a major damage dealer in its kit.

While some of the changes in the broader patch I’ve taken issue with, for the most part the adjustments to minor natives this time around have been positive. While there was some wild stuff I kinda don’t like, a lot of the small changes are well received and hopefully do well in making these options more attractive to players without totally breaking the subject of the fixes, in either sense.

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There is still a lot of work to do with natives:

The Caribs are supposed to have been experts in navigation and fishing. But they have no improvements related to it. To replace them on maps containing such add the Arawak who would fit on many South American maps. We could also add Tainos for more of the Caribbean region, but without replacing the Caribs (Just as diversity). My proposal in this regard is that they shorten a little the arrival of the shipments and the cost of experience, since it is assumed that the shipments arrive through the Atlantic to the coasts of the Caribbean Sea, since the Caribs used to anticipate bad weather times and they knew very well the waters of the Caribbean. (Also there are very few improvements in the game that improve the mechanics of metropolis itself). This is the proposal that I liked to propose the most XD.

For the Mayans I had suggested that they could improve defensive buildings, but now they allow you to unlock a fort. It improves the defensive game which was what I wanted, but I would suggest that the fort is not an upgrade or tech, but a trainable unit like a Berber salt wagon. Please add 3 more improvements, since again they would be left with 2 improvements.

I like that Klamath Rifleman can now gather resources, but it’s been drastically reduced. I think it should be a little stronger, not as strong as it was before, but still respectable.

I also feel that all Native American skirmishes should improve to a range of 18 with each upgrade. Many royal house skirmish units can overcome this, and standard skirmishes have 20 range. Units like the Cree, Navajo and Cherokee Rifleman could potentially have a range of 18.

Apache cavalry should have a build limit of 12. There are carabinieri type units in royal houses that have a higher limit of just 9. I’d settle for a limit of 10.

Give me 5 upgrades for each native. Multiple buffs per TP makes an alliance with the natives more tempting. Many of these improvements make it possible to find more strategic options.

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I probably can’t come up with techs, per say, but I do have an idea for a minor civ, the Zunghars/Oirats. They should speak Mongolian, just reuse AOE2’s sound bites. They should have 2 units at least, 1 is the Zunghar Cavalry Archer. It should be a super heavy cavalry archer. Ranged attack has multipliers against melee cavalry, melee does not, melee should just have a blanket damage, like a hussar.

My second unit would be Camel Artillery. Basically a historically accurate Zamburak, moves somewhat quickly, rider dismounts, camel kneels, commence firing. It could be good against infantry, and you should only be able to train 5.

As for techs, I have a few in mind, one would be “Tibetan Buddhism” - adds a 2.0 XP trickle.

“Mongol Tradition” - all cavalry moves 10% faster, all ranged cavalry receives a 10% attack increase.

“Zunghar Khanate” - All villagers move 10% faster and gather natural resources 10% faster.

Those are just initial ideas.

Oh should probably mention, they can be found on Manchuria, Siberia, Mongolia, and Central Asia.

They are more suitable to be introduced into the game as outlaws/mercenaries.

The Tibetan Buddhist monastery is worth an Asian minor civ.
You put the cart before the horse.

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There are units that can reach up to rank 26 by promoting, such as the mountain soldier. In addition I can create 15 of these units, and also 10 cavalry. Even up to 3 types of units if we consider the passive ability in this case. Why are natives only limited to 16 reach? I don’t understand. Even with 18 range they would be below most other skirmishes.

That’s why it didn’t seem crazy to me to be able to create 12 Apache horsemen, and that’s why it didn’t seem absurd to me that, for example, the Cherokee rifleman has a rank of 18.

Here I will also share the Tier List, although I had already done it here, I will do it again.


(It was not created by me, it was created by high ELO players)

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I think that most Natives should also get a second unit.

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Some of them have room for it and I hope they get it.

Technologies are a must because there are such a few…

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Big agree
(20 characters)

I would say Pueblo is the most unique culture both in architecture and life style. Also for their famous ancestors who ruled the Great canyon and later the plateau from above. Their descendant’s resistance against colonist were also tough and tensile. It would be my dream to see them in AOE3!

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Likely to remain a dream.

The were planned for inclusion in civ5 iirc. But they seemed to have completely refused to cooperate and be represented and were replaced by the Shoshone.

Unless they changed their minds, the Pueblo seem off limits for game inclusion.

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I made one as well, can’t just let nootkas be disrespected like that

Ainu minor civ, with a Sakhalin map to go along
Ainu people - Wikipedia
Sakhalin - Wikipedia

They could also show up in Honshu, Kamchatka and Hokkaido out of the maps that are already in the game, and if that isn’t enough they could also add a Kuril Islands map:
Kuril Islands - Wikipedia

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Why would nootkas be in tier S? They only serve to besiege and little else. They lose against everything, except against cavalry and shock infantry (to mele).

nootka are exceptionally tanky and cost such a tiny amount of wood. They are really quite good for their cost

(reposting from another thread)
While rewatching Golden Kamuy (an anime and manga series that delves a lot into Ainu culture and even went to Sakhalin for a bit), I was able to think of at least three things that could be turned into technologies:
Citatap

Idk what it could affect, maybe training times or food cost?

Aconite poison arrows (she doesn’t get to hit any arrow but you can see her shooting some here)

Could give their units poison damage like with those Yoruba, Tupi and Carib techs

Amappo (I couldn’t find any clip of it, but it’s basically a tripwire trap that uses a crossbow and the aforementioned poison arrows)


Could affect hunting

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Random thought

I don’t even like the word “civ rework” because it’s basically a “review”. I think Incans was the only civilization to be reworked".:face_with_monocle:

Random thought 2

The legacy natives have been addressed every month but they are so outdated and so far behind the others, that, by the pace the devs are addressing them, we’ll have them in line with the ones from African Royals in 2026.:thinking:

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