My concern with the spanish

With a percentage discount the units affected the most are first light cav and then cav, therefore they become just another cav spamming civ. Remember they already have FU paladins.

Arson, Supplies, and Bloodlines do not cost gold when playing as the Spanish.
It fits with their current tech tree theme of having a good Barracks and Stable without fully specializing into either military building. It also fits with their current bonus theme of Blacksmith upgrades costing no gold. And with the new Militia line buffs, a further discount to infantry upgrades ought to make the Militia line an attractive alternative to other Spanish military options, depending on the civ matchup.

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Personally, I would like to see a better transition into the Cavalry Archer. Their Cav Archers are not a bad option, and can be quite the surprise unit when unveiled, but they do not have a smooth transition. You have to force it, which is not economical.

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Liked it. That is 225 gold saved. Helps opening scouts and enables an easy longsword transition after a MaA opening. Also makes fc into knights slightly smoother but does not turn them into a cav civ or makes knights the choice to go for every game.
It’s a good bonus tbh.

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I asked this long ago - “Military buildings technologies does not cost gold”. I personally want to include Dock techs as well - Careening, Dry Dock & Shipwright. So they can be an A tier or B+ tier water civ.

PT can be added into their tech tree and this won’t cost gold either. CA needs a lot of upgrades - 6 blacksmith techs, Bloodlines, Husbandry, Chemistry, Ballistic, TR & PT. Altogether this cost 1475 gold. If the new bonus “Military technologies does not cost gold” is added with “Blacksmith technologies does not cost gold”, they can save 1100 gold from all the CA upgrades. The only problem I can see is this will make Conquistador less attractive. That being said, they should get benefit from PT. Currently their power falls in imperial age as elite version is not that stronger compared to non-elite one.

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To me, spanish have the same problem of Italians, a too bad start.

Another option, in addition to the proposed ones, is a buff to their builders. Ofc, it should not further improve the speed for wonders, towers, and castles (pretty sure that wondersare already limited), but for all the other buildings I think it can buffed

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Imo, spanish is not weak at all and have a good power spike. Wide tech tree but upgrade cost force your choose a few to specialize depending on your opponent play. This really help players to play with strategy.

Though spanish receive indirect nerf through wall nerf, Spanish still seems ok.

They’re ok but it doesn’t mean they can’t be better. The point is to make all civs roughly balanced while also keeping them unique and giving an incentive to play them as opposed to playing something like Franks. (Or in this case Magyars, or who ever else tickles your fancy - wide tech tree can do basically everything favours cav and CA)

Exactly. The BS bonus kicks in very late. Building speed is only really good on nomad or some megarandom. Making them too reliant on a (not even the best) UU…

In comparison Mongols are also highly reliant on the mangudai but can do a lot of things before then and when they reach the mangudai they’re amazing… Spanish aren’t even amazing if they do reach conqs or trash wars…

Maybe too strong and too late

I keep hearing this “wide tech tree” thing.
It simply isn’t true. Chinese or Malians have it, Byzantines or even Italians have it. Lacking one of the main unit line to compete in feudal age is a terrible hole in a tech tree, expecially in 1v1 where the most expensive final upgrades are rarely used (siege onager, paladin).

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I do think this is an issue, although Spanish power in general is really good at that stage relative to a lot of civs… they could alternatively atleast lower the cost for the elite conq since it’s a pile of junk

Is it? Bloodlines 100 gold, Supplies 75 gold and Arson 50 gold, that’s it (on land). Saving 125 gold from Supplies and Arson is completely useless as Spanish tbh. The 100 gold from bloodlines seems a minimum to me.

Didn’t understand that. Can you explain?

To me it’s the complete opposite. The conquistador’s ability to make everything decently (cause that’s the problem. Not that they are too strong, but they can do everything decently) heavily desincentivize “playing with strategy” and makes going conqs the best option in every scenario.
Koreans suffer from exactly the same.

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I dont like conq nerf and buff other generic unuts. Coz good conq makes Spanish good and special.
As to buff, I dont know what is suitable for Spanish.

Well that’s a very specific definition of military techs isnt it? I guess you’d still keep the bs ones right? Chemistry and ballistics are also military techs. As are all the units upgrades. Could be somewhat difficult to put in words.

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Yes I’ll keep BS and maybe I should specific my words too. Blacksmith and military buildings (and Dock - I really wish to add this as well) technologies (not unit upgrades) cost no gold. Hopefully this will erase the confusion.

I completely disagree.

Many valid strats with spaniards.

You want to sand-down civ’s identity and make them a generic Italians/Portuguese civ, okay, anything else Sir?

Free xbows and eco bonuses to everyone!!!

I agree, the conq makes them play unique and is a viable archer alternative. Nothing wrong with this. IMO it’s an easier transition than something like Bohemians into Castle Age HC.

Viable archer alternative in feudal age? :thinking:
Drush into FC to castle and conquistadores is way slower and way more expensive than going scouts into knights, like anyone else with good knights in Castle age.
Castle drop/defensive castle into conquistadores might work on Arena, or Hideout, we’re talking about 10% of played games though. For the vast majority of games Spanish realistically are just another knights civ, without any eco and prominent military bonus.

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What’s wrong with Spanish archers in Feudal? You just shouldn’t overinvest in them because they become useless in Castle and Imperial Age, which is when conqs become an option. I think conqs perform well on open maps, assuming you have at least one castle (offensive or defensive). They require fewer upgrades than Cav Archers (no ballistics, fletching/bodkin/bracer, thumb ring, parthian tactics), and can be useful even in small to medium groups. It’s also an easier transition from Scouts, since you’ll have more food eco set up and maybe Bloodlines/Husbandry. This also makes it easier to pair them with Light Cav/Hussar and counter Skirmishers.

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