My ideas for old civs after Dawn of the Dukes

People in the community give a heated discussion about the Poles and Bohemians recently.
It is good but here I wanna focus on the old civs.


  • get the 3rd cavalry armor and the stone wall.
  • lose the hussar, the hand cannoneer and the crop rotation.
  • Perfusion: Barracks work 80% faster (from 100%).


  • get the bombard cannon.
  • lose the bloodline.
  • Bushido (replace Kataparuto): the samurais, knights and cavalry archer +2 pierce armor.


  • Nomads: now unlock the population limit like Huns.
  • Nomads: cost 450W200G (from 300W150G).


  • get the bracer.
  • lose the crossbowman.
  • Kamandaran: the archer line units cost 50W (from 60).


  • Madrasah: also let the relic generate gold +50%.
  • Madrasah: cost 250F250G (from 200F100G).


  • get the light cavalry.
  • Crenellations: let garrisoned cavalry also fire arrows.


  • get the 3rd archer armor.


  • get the blood line and the 3rd melee attack upgrade.
  • War wagon: change the attack mechanism into firing a bunch of arrows (maybe 4 or 5 arrows).
  • War wagon: change the armor class into the cavalry and siege weapon, similar to the scorpion elephant.


  • get the crossbowman.
  • Inquisition: also give the missionary +2 range.
  • Missionary: now able to carry the relic but moving as slow as regular monks while carrying a relic.
  • free elite cannon galleon upgrade but no longer faster missiles and better accuracy.


  • started the game 2 free llamas (from 1).
  • free infantry armor line.


  • Genoese Crossbowman: get +1 range.


  • lose the faith.
  • Orthodoxy: also let the units resist the convert +33%.


  • get the 2nd archer armor.
  • lose the halberdier or the infantry attack bonus no longer benefit the spearman line.


  • Monetary Reform: renamed from Paper Money.
  • Monetary Reform: also generate 0.33 gold per second.


  • get the 3rd archer armor.


  • Cuman Mercenaries: every allies’ castle automatically spawn 6 free elite Kipchaks who cost no population (up to 3 castle per player). If the player has less than 3 castles, the effect will wait the new castle constructed.


  • now the bonus about the relic can up to 5.


  • Flaming Camel: no longer need the Timurid Siegecraft and trainable since the castle age.

Have a nice day.

What is the point of removing bloodlines if you’re just going to go ahead and buff their knights and cav archers with PA? makes no sense. if anything you should leave their knights and cav archers alone.

why? this is change for the sake of change. also i like how you say “archer line” when they only have archers after your change. yeah it buffs their cav archers and skirms but those units are fine.

again why? do you realize how little time people actually spend garrisoning units?

because aztecs totally need buffs.

why nerf them?

do castle age GC really need buffs?

because we need another civ with teutons/first crusade style bonus.

because burmese totally need nerfs.

gold trickles that aren’t tied to anything at all? sounds terrible.

don’t think this is necessary.


It make the knights and cavalry archers stronger to face the archers but weaker while enemies closing.
To be honest, I only put samurais there in the beginning, but I consider about that it had full cavalry archers before. In the other hand, the samurais had fought on the horse back and fire the arrows before they started foot fighting.

Oops, it is my mistake. 11

I think lacking the bracer could not being called “fine” to the range units.
It is still balance, would not change to much to the current meta.

All ideas I stated are the just my opinions. Take it easy. 11
Teutons actually is a cavalry civ so I just think it would be good if the cavalry also get the benefit.
By the way, are you ever see the Teutons player train the scout cavalry after hitting the castle age?

The duty of the cannon ships is sieging, not ship battle.
Even if the faster missiles and better accuracy had not made it more common.
Free elite upgrade actually let it do its own job better.

Genoese Crossbowman has only 4 range in the castle age.
This is why people seldom use it.

Just try to make Orthodoxy have more value of strategies. Or nobody research it now.
If you use the boyar in the castle age, it will be useful.

I am open to this, you can give your suggestion to how to fix it.
Its one-off effect let it be criticized.

After losing the 3rd melee attack upgrade I regard it does not have any problem.
But yes it may not be necessary.

it makes both significantly weaker in castle age period.

they aren’t supposed to be an archer civ anyway.

and guess what? they are seldom used for either in multiplayer.

or because it belongs to italians, who aren’t a great land civ, and they require a castle.

so think of another way to make it better, instead of just copying another civs bonus.

If Lithuanians need love its something to be considered, but frankly speaking, getting 5 relics is not easy and if you do get 5 relics you already had the game well in hand and this wouldn’t change anything.


Goths are already a weak civ, these things would simply not make it any better.

I would rather keep the bloodline. Not having bloodline means losing cavalry as an option in Castle, and also means no longer having FU HCA.

Mongols really don’t need more buffs right now.

That’s such a terrible trade-off. Just why?

I can see why you’d want that, but then it means Aztecs would turn into yet another generic Archer civ :confused:

Why? This just seems like change for the sake of change. Doesn’t really address any of the problems addressed at the civ.

I would disagree with these. Spanish should go for conqs imho. But it needs to be made more viable. Spanish have no eco bonus, and also very extreme reliance on food compared to civs that have similar unit compositions.

2 free llamas sounds nice, but the infantry upgrades are kinda useless. They need to get their strong feudal spike back, otherwise they remain an obsolete civ. Mayans will always be better at archers, Aztecs will always be better with infantry.

That’s a huge huge nerf to an already bottom tier civ, so disagree.

Ok but you’d have to nerf the base attack of the Leitis.

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The good early eco of Japanese still can let the knight do the job to cover their main forece archers. In the other hand, Japanese horses can not be used to charge actually.
Full cavalry archer line is not such important if it could get the other bonus.

Yeah. It still would not be called an archer civ even if it get the bracer.

And it would be better when sometimes you use them.
Now it gets more useful, may be used more.

Since people do not like use Italians on the land map, why not do some changes for this situation?

I do not such care about this if it can fix the problam.
So please give me your suggestion.

Having full cavaliers make Goths could play the regular cavalry-archer team game at least.
The stone wall protect Goths weakness which is the period before construct a castle.
Since there are cheaper and crazy infantry in the late game, I regarded that Goths may not need the hussar and the hand cannoneer.

Aztec is really bad in the late game.

Try to no longer rely on the war wagon. Now the Korean knight may be also worth trying to cover the crossbowmen. In the other hand, the war wagon was actually designed to reflect Hwacha.

Try fix the problem of Inquisition and Missionary.

Combine the villager bonus. Also, it make the eagle rush faster.

2nd archer armor is actually buffing.
Losing the benefit to halberdiers do not make them worse to counter the cavalry.

The eco bonus of Japanese is strongly diminished by Castle. It allows you to get your Feudal rush faster than most. I would not want to lose FU HCA as Japanese. HCA is one of their few late-game power unit that can win them the game. A ball of HCA kept alive into late imp can be the deciding factor in game.

HC is very useful for Goths. It’s one of their only counters to anti-infantry infantry. Samurai, TK, Jaguar Warrior, are examples where you would want to mix some HC into your composition to not die.

Yes, but that’s fine. They have a very very strong mid-game.

It’s useless. If I want eagle rush, Aztec is much better choice. Faster production of eagles, and more long term eco bonus.

Their Archery Range will still suck and now you have no longer advantage of stronger halbs in trash wars,

In my opinion, the heavy cavalry archer with 60 HP and 8 pierce armor is better than with 80 HP and 6 pierce armor. The biggest weakness of the cavalry archers is being fired by the archers and skirmishers.
However I understand that full upgrading for something is such attractive.

Now there are full cavaliers. But it is absolutely fine that we find that we still need the cannoneers and add them back.

Better than nothing. Mezzo military can only be buffed by improving infantry or archers.
Or maybe we can buff the siege weapon but Incas has not good monks and also I have no idea about it.

At least the skirmisher is useful in the castle age now.
Burmese has wood bonus to spawn the trash more. The regular full halberdiers and hussars still do their job well, and now you can try the skirmishers more than the past.

The Bushido tech that you suggested probably wouldn’t be implemented, as it affects too many units at once. So the replacement tech for it likely wouldn’t give +2 to HCA.

The devs made a big mistake with the nerf :slight_smile: now it’s a civ with no purpose. No minor buff can help it.

Skirmisher is one of the worst unit to go for, especially if it becomes a completely useless unit in imp. Investing into all the range upgrades just to immediately not need them in imp… not sure how I feel about that.

There are example of affecting 3 units at once in the current game.
If there is the bloodline, Bushido would only benefit samurais.
If Bushido benefit not only samurais, there would no bloodline.
It is just a comparison between +20HP and +2 pierce, no correct or wrong.

You will try them rather than doing nothing while the opponent is a great archer civ and you are behind the game.

I won;t. They’re OK in Castle, but skirms can’t do any damage. So at best I can stall the game until imp and then die anyway because now I’m invested into skirms and range upgrades, but no +2 in Imp so I’ll just die super hard.

Ok but I don’t see why do it. I like the current Japanese tech tree.

Better idea. Just buff samurai and leave Japanese alone elsewhere

So you have to make sure try anything possible that you can lead the game since the castle age, or don’t behind too much at least. It is the weakness designed for the Burmese. It should be painful.

If you study the Japanese history you may know that they had never used trebuchets.
The imperial UT is totally fake. I can accept something impossible exist in the regular tree for balance, but it is non-sense that UT is a mistake especially for a history-theme game.
In the other hand, here are some reason.

  • Japanese horses are not suitable for battle. It is weird that it has better cavalry than Koreans and even Vikings.
  • Charging is the samurais’ duty in the traditional Japanese military culture, it make them glory. But the current samurai is situational, the brave Japanese warriors die even before touching the enemy.
  • Before they started foot fighting, the samurais had used to battle on the horse back in the Heian period.

I am open for it. :wink:

That is true, but there are many things like that in the game that exist only for Balance reasons. Trebuchets weren’t known to the Hun civilization… and yet they can produce them and also have a bonus for them. Not to mention weapons like the Arbalest for the Mayan civilization were not really available.

With that being said, I would not be against cosmetic redesigns of the units to better suit whatever region they are from, as long as it can be toggled client side.

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Yeah, Aztecs, Mayans, Incas used trebuchet in every battle.

Neither did the meso civs.
Chinese invented gunpowder but other then Petards demo ships and towers what gunpowder do they have?

Balance exists in a game which is why some things are hey rhey are


So I stated that …

However, the UU and UT are still different to the common part of the tech tree and the civ bonus. Their meaning is special. You would never allow a gunner becoming an UU of a medieval native American civ. Sometimes the balance may also not be a good reason.

To be honest, I would not oppose that Chinese get the hand cannoneers.
In the other hand, Chinese used cannons more in the defense. It was seldom in the attack activities, so I can accept there is no bombard cannon.
Anyway, that is regular tech tree. The problem of UT is definitely more serious than it.

Yeah so explain why cuman mercenaries provides zero benefit to cumans then. There are so many bonuses that don’t apply to rhe civ rhey apply to youd have to change the entire game

Cumans had done the mercenary activities in many European states. It is not totally fake.
You still can train the units free now even you are the Cumans player.
I also suggest something for this tech.

The problem of Kataparuto is not only a little useless, but more important it is totally fake, creating by the dev. TOTALLY FAKE.

Yes. For compensation. But what compensation do cumans get out the tech? NOTHING