My latest balance suggestions

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Ok guys, since AoE4 is out, I’ll probably switch my attention and little free time to that game for the time being, so I won’t follow aoe2 and aoe3 scene as much as before.

For this reason, I decided to post my latest balance suggestions for the game. Some will probably overlap with the new pup changes, while others aren’t new. Still, I thought it was worth to post them along some new ones, as a reminder.

Aztecs:

  • JW moves 0.05 faster (as much as berserkers).

Bohemians:

  • Lose the arb upgrade.
  • Wagenburg tactics UT get a secondary effect. All xbows present at the moment are transformed into HC.

Burgundians:

  • Lose access to squires.

Celts:

  • Stronghold UT affects TCs too.

Chinese:

  • CKN cost 5 gold more.

Cumans:

  • Cuman mercenaries allows the allies to train kipchaks at their castles at double the gold cost.

Franks:

  • Cavalry get +10/20% HP in feudal/castle age.

Incas:

  • TB also get eco tech research 100% faster.
  • Kamayuks get +2 against eagles.

Indians:

  • Elite EA cost 800f and 700g (-200f and - 100g).

Italians:

  • Walls (tiles of palisade and stone) are built 20% faster.
  • Get access to SE discounted by the 33% university discount.
  • Condos get a +2 bonus attack vs eagles, and +1 vs spears.

Koreans:

  • Get the first infantry armor upgrade for free too.

Poles:

  • Folwarks can garrison up to 10 vills.
  • Lechitic legacy UT also gives +1 PA to hussars.

Portoghese:

  • All techs are researched 50% faster (from 30%).
  • Get access to squires.

Sicilians:

  • Hauberk gives +1/3 armor.
  • Lose access to cavalry plate armor.
  • Get access to redemption.

Spanish:

  • Get fervor and sanctity for free upon reaching castle age.

Some may be missing, so keep checking this original post. I’ll admit that this time the post is a little bit rushed, but with the little free time that I have, and with AoE4 out, I wanted to put it out there as soon as I can.

1 Like
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Agree. Jaguar warrior can be more seen.

Transform one unit to the other unit that is not the same unit line is wield and not AOE2 concept. Maybe similar to Flemish Revolution.
Also, it seems like you want to force player to go xbow and switch to HC. It is more interesting to both arbs and castle age HC are available and player can choose between them.

Don’t need to take out their flexibility to use infantry. It is better to nerf their eco.

It doesn’t fit the civ design of Celts. Stronghold UT incentive celts to use aggresive Tower, not just defend TC and boom. It would be better to give more effects like additional attack or range on their Castle/Tower.

It makes chinese not going for CKN and more on Arbs… which is boring change. CKN are not broken, and I think they are fine after recent nerfs. More nerf on them make them trash in low-mid elo.

Agreed.

Wall building bonus is just too similar to Spanish bonus. Also Italians already get discounted BBC and don’t need SE. Also, considering condos don’t need upgrade, it is fairly trade well against eagle without bonus damage.

I would rather suggest buff on Genoese Crossbow (More attack, reduced Training time and/or More bonus damage vs Cavarly). Italians only have GC against Cavarly in Imp and it should be more affordable to go GC and GC should become hard counter to cavarly. It need critical mass to effectively counter Cavarly, which is not easy for UU.

Just too arbitrary addition of free tech…

Concepts of garrisoning folwarks is nice but I think it can be implemented with nerfing Folwarks bonus. Then, it can be nerf on Arena they are already strong (Folwark farms are not raided with walls), and help them in open map they are suffer.
And Winged Hussar with Lechitic Legacy is strong enough and don’t need further buff. Keep in mind that it is just 80 food unit that trade very wide range of unit.

It can make them OP in water map… Maybe get 50% with sizable water nerf.
Okay with Squires.

Maybe Okay… but I wonder it can be too huge nerf that their light cav become very weak. Also why adding redemption?

Spanish already have Monk UU and monk UT, not sure they need more.

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Burgundians losing squires is based off the assumption that flemish rev would be fine if it was ever so slightly delayed, which of course it wouldn’t. It just needs to be replaced with something else.

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The suggestions

sound fun, though the Sicilian one sounds rather nerfy.
I won’t say anything about balance.

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Your Sicilian suggestion is a huge nerf in disguise.
I’d rework Hauberk to affect all stable units at least, giving +2/+3 (losing the last cav armor). That would put the light cav armor to 4/7 and the cavalier armor to 6/7. Now they are 3/6 and 6/8.
Your version is a huge nerf for light cav and a pathetic +0/+1 for the knight line.

2 Likes
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This can be potentially broken in TG. Kipchaks with bracer and some civ bonus(eg. Mongols kipchak attack 25% faster) can greatly boost their power. Shared non-trash unit can be very overwhelming. Even condo has only similar strength as champions, it suffered huge nerf due to different civ bonus. I really dont prefer shared non-trash unit.

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I still keep this, remove bloodlines and then the sicilian cavaliers are just fine.

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But kipchaks are less pop efficients than HCA and have worse stats, and he even make them less cost efficient. So in the end if a civ has good kipchaks it won’t matter cuz their HCA will be better.

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They would have about the same armor as a paladins, but at least they are forced into a castle.

No, it’s a nerf even without a disguise… the intention was to nerf their cavalier…

Which also get conversion resistance and half bonus damage from counter units.

Lol, that’s because shared trash units are useless…

I mean, in a game with infinite gold you who cares about imperial skirms and genitours.

Really? The kipchak basically a weaker CA with less frame delay. The useful thing is that your ally pay for the line upgrade, so you don’t need to pay for the HCA upgrade.

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Discounted BBC doesn’t substitute SE, which mainly is +1 range.

And so? A lot of bonuses are similar. The italians are an overall a different civ than spanish, they would benefit a lot from a better walling (especially with the new nerf on walling) and it would be historically accurate.

Condos beats barely eagles with all upgrades, pavise included. Eagles are a crazy strong unit, mayan eagles can even beat FU generic cavaliers, but in general, they are weak against infantry, as a counter-balance effect. Condos and kamayuks are right now the exception.

GC are fine. They have an elite upgrade which is a bit too much expensive, but overall they do their job.

It’s not. Koreans are weak against cav civ, the free infantry armor is useful for spear defense and drush.

It doesn’t need a nerf for compensation, the folwark already expose you a lot more than what it’s worth.

Without the last armor not that much against ranged unit… but anyway I would give them just +1 PA to compensate a bit for their weak late game, they would still lack +1/1 armor over other hussars.

Nah, italians will still be stronger with cheaper upgrades…

And they are the weakest civ on 1v1 arabia. If not that they need something…

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And they become utterly terribile in team games, as I already pointed out. No FU arbs, no viable cavalry archers, no FU cavaliers, no Paladins, no hussars, trash monks without even redemption, just infantry and siege without bombards and without any bonus for them. Basically they’d need to be carried by Serjeants, which is most unlikely, they are simply not effficient enough in team games, they trade badly even against regular champs.

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Then just give them Thumb Ring so you can use their arbalests in team games.
Also cmon then give more attack to elite serjeant, also the elite upgrade, as well the gold, cost, have to be reduced.

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Aztecs: Okay
Bohemians: Too chaotic and clowny
Burgundians: Sure, the civ needs a redsign anyways so whatever
Celts: Sounds great
Chinese: CKN were never the problem of this civ, I wouldn’t touch this well designed unit, it already dies hard to Onagers.
Cumans: Interesting
Franks: Solid
Incas: Stop forcing every civ into eco bonuses utopia, it’s okay for 1 out of 3 meso civs to have no eco bonuses, try to buff them cleverly, you can do better.
Indians: OK
Italians: Wall thing is too minor, the civ already has too minor useless bonuses, it has an identity crisis, so instead of adding more junk try to be more inovative, the SE just makes the civ more generic, and turn their post-imp composition into a scarrier one, which was never the problem of this civ. I’d remove the pathetic university bonus that developers gave them and go and push further your cute bonus regarding walls, just increase it to: Walls are built 50% faster. That’s how you create diversity and clear identity to a civ that can be felt during the playing experience.
Koreans: Bad one. Used to be a tower rush civ, not it’s a generic MAA into Archers. If you could revive their tower aspect without making it broken I’d admire you.
Poles: You really gave their Hussars the only thing they’re missing in order to become a golden composition? that’s a crime when it comes to strategy.
Portuguese: That’s what Im talking about, good job, all techs from 30% to 50%, that’s awesome, however squires is another attempt to make a civ generic, not needed.
Sicilians: Hauberk should be removed from the game, it’s another design failure, pushing the civ away from it’s identity into a generic cav civ with a very clear win condition.
Spanish: Their Castle Age is already their power spike once they reach Castle + monastery, do you really want to buff this phase? with enough micro they’re already too strong.

2 Likes
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What you’ve just suggested is in other words: make Serjeant a generic Unique Infantry Unit, with high damage and low gold cost. Okay. What else? chaning their name to Berserk?

Serjeant identity is clear- heavy armored builder. You cant make it a well-rounded unit, that’s not how strategy game works.

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omega lol, the Chu Ko Nu is just too good for how are priced tbh, the reason why they aren’t seen that much is because Chinese end games before they even need to use the unit, literally all pros rate this unit at S tier, Chu Ko Nu indeed needs a nerf, not all civs can go for onager easily, especially on arabia.

So you then want to keep them as a infantry man with poor perfomance vs champions while almost all other infantry UUs can beat them (except Karambits, Huskarls and Shotels)?, instead of FE using sicilian cavalier as rat lab for every OP and horrible balance change proposed, just reinforce their infantry identity towards their UU.

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Thumb ring, nah, their arbs lack even the last archer armor, I’d not waste TR on them.
Serjeant buff, yes please, but the main consensus seems to indicate that Serjeants are fine, I wonder if First Crusade was removed if anyone would even dare to train a Serjeant between their insane elite upgrade cost and their train cost.
All in all imho this Hauberk tech has ruined Sicilians, it was a tech that nobody called for, and it does not help where help is needed most, honestly if it wasn’t already the teuton bonus, I’d have preferred it gave something like +3 melee armor and no extra pierce to cavaliers.

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Elite Eagle need huge upgrade cost of elite and their own UT to improve their stat. But Condo don’t need that cost. Only Pavis marginally upgrade their stat. In early imp, Italians can easily overwhelm eagle with their condos when they waiting elite upgrade and UT. Condo can still beat eagle without bonus damage.

GC are fine, except it is only viable option for Italians vs Cavalry in imp. Therefore, It should be more hard counter cavalry with lower number than current state. Also some HCA like Turks HCA or Mangudai beat GC 1v1, I think GC should beat HCA in equal number.

Considering how well they perform in Arena, I think nerf should be accompanied with buff.

They aren’t that weak against ranged unit due to the trample damage. Trample damage is especially deadly against ranged unit which is tend to stack against melee unit. I don’t think it should be buffed more.

No it can be debatable, and faster tech more important in water map where getting War galley upgrade or ballistics first is important.

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Literally Poles lack last armor upgrade for Arbalests still they synergies soo well with Obuch, personally I always use Arbalest and Obuch with really satisfactory results, but on Sicilians why is bad? at least makes them a better civ as flank in TG, which is something they need.

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Because Serjeants are no Obuchs. Simply as that.Serjeants are way more expensive, to train and to upgrade, they don’t perform very good vs champs, on equal resources vs FU regular champs, and even on equal numbers against top notch champs like aztecs, burmese, japanese and bulgarian THS.

Poles Arbs clearly can benefit from Obuchs “armor tearing effect”, Sicilians Arbs don’t have a unit that can hold the line so well, Serjeant is simply unfit for the role.

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Fine

I think I like this idea

I think they can stay as they are. No need for nerf

I would hit the civ with a larger nerf

These are very minor. Fine with them

The GC upgrade must be fixed. I do not like the wall bonus, but, of you do, I suggest a much larger percentage, like 100% (twice as fast). Or stone walls costing wood directly

Ok the other two ideas

I like these proposals a lot. Poles may even get +0/2 armor for the scouts.