My personal balance changes

Some ideas I have, would like to know what you think. Its not that I want to push for these changes as much as an experiment of what I would do if I was tasked to balance the game

Steppe Lancer buffed I guess, no idea about how to do that one

Supplies half food cost?

Bulgarians: Stirrups reduced from 33% faster to 25% faster (I think while the civ is fine their hussars could be slightly nerfed), mounted Elite Konnik have their fire rate increased to 2.2 (to balance the stirrups nerf)

Burmese: gain second archer armour upgrade, non-elite arambai reduced hp, elite arambai -1 pierce armour

Byzantines: Gain free town patrol (obvious change, since its a really minor bonus that fits a civ that its not overpowered really well)

Chinese: Non-elite Chu Ko Nu -1 attack, Great Wall costs 400F 100S, gain hand canoneer

The elite upgrade is already fairly underwhelming and I think pushing Chinese to get it considering how expensive it is and how strong Chinese are in high level would be an smart change, also Great Wall is too expensive. Also they get hand canoneer since some people would like it and they would never use it either way

Cumans: Cavalry moves 5% faster starting at feudal age, get husbandry (and husbandry for free if they still need a buff), Cuman Mercenaries half research time -100 gold cost and cost wood instead of food, creation time of the free Kipchaks highly reduced (not sure how much but it should be at the very least 3 seconds less), non-elite Kipchaks -0.05 speed, elite Kipchaks +1 attack or extra arrow (not sure about this one tbh but they seem to be fairly bad at late game)

This is basically to:
A. Give them more mid game options.
B. Give at least a bit of 1v1 usefulness to Cuman Mercenaries
C. Make Kipchaks less bad at late game

Ethiopians: Shotel warriors -10 (or -15?) food cost

Franks: Not sure, nerfing or removing the farming bonus (if we remove it we could de-nerf the berry bonus I guess) may be a good choice but that may change the civ too much making it too hard to balance

Goths: Perfusion effect reduced (to either +40% or +66%), cheaper barracks units changed to -10/20/30/40%, lose current hunting and free loom bonuses, boar (or hunt in general) lasts longer instead, Huskarls cost +5 food and gold

I know I shouldnt be trying to rework Goths… But this is my idea anyway

Huns: Atheism slightly cheaper (?)

Incas: Villagers benefit from blacksmith attack upgrades, +1/2 armour at castle and imperial age (or whatever ends up being balanced)

Indians: I want to change something and give them the +1 melee armour they are missing, I just have no idea how, either way Elephant archers +1 range (and maybe +1 attack), removed negative archer armour

Italians: Advancing to the next age costs -20% and fishing ship discount scales through the ages like the Indian bonus

Khmer: No idea honestly, maybe increase BE base attack by one and reduce Tusk Swords effect by one as well to make the BE better for the other civs?

Koreans: Wood discount affects siege, beyond that idk, seems fine to me

Lithuanians: No idea honestly, I dont really like much the relic bonus but it seems balanced

Magyars: make the scout bonus scale through the ages and either give them a mid game eco bonus (I could propose a bunch of weird ones but I think people would have better ideas than cheaper TC techs or something like that) or double down on military and give them cheaper archery range techs

Malay: Would like to simplify the civ by removing either of the fish trap bonus while making the other stronger but I think its fine

Malians: Seems fine to me, kind of a shame giving them free gold shaft mining would be OP though

Mayans: Nerf El Dorado? Idk, but that seems like the first thing I would nerf if I had to nerf them

Mongols: Nomads replaced with something else (maybe moving the light cavalry hp bonus here and making destroyed houses destroyed not losing population without the destroying house exploit as the bonus instead but that would be a decent nerf for a civ that hasnt been getting a lot of love recently)

Persians: I would love to give them back the 5% work rate on dark age but that would probably mean nerfing something else from early game (like making it not affect docks) instead I would increase the work rate starting at feudal to +15/20/25% and nerf the extra hp to +50% (if thats not enough then I would increase the starting resources to +75w and +75f). I would also swap the UTs increasing the cost of Kamarandan

Saracen: Madrasah increases the range of monks (ideally something else but we are running low of monk bonuses), transport ship bonus only increases hp

Slavs: Siege workshop units 20% cheaper (that may have to be nerfed later but lets give it a try), Orthodoxy +1/1 armour

Spanish: Gain crossbow if you want to keep the bonuses as they are, otherwise you can give them some cavalry bonus

Teutons: Towers and town centers double garrison capacity (not for balance porpuses but a civ having two bonuses doing the same is an slight annoyance)

Turks: I would have given them even faster miners and siege engineers but with the new scout bonus that would be OP

Vietnamese: I know you have heard it a thousant times but make the TC reveal bonus the team bonus


there is a reason this bonus was nerfed (the speed boost).

but why?

they are already getting their unique techs nerfed.

this is a huge nerf to the civilization as a whole and will leave them completely dead.

wow lets just ruin this civ on water completely.

Khmer aren’t even overpowered anymore - why nerf them?

but again the bonuses to fish traps aren’t overpowered. especially with teh upcoming changes.


It clearly had to be nerfed when you had OP steppe lancers with crazy speed or incredibly speedy and strong Kipchaks. Making it better for knight rush is probably balanced at only 15 (it was 21% back then). Removed free husbandry from my ideas to keep it more balanced

Because we practically never see them

This is mostly for people that complain about the 1v1 win rates. I think they are fine as they are

Huskarls end up costing the same, they have an actual eco bonus for the early game that could allow for more variety on strategies, the flood will be slower (20% slower if Perfusion is 66% faster) but cheaper. The mid game is still weak, yeah.

I think they will still be fine with cheaper fishing ships (we can keep the bonus as it is if that works better) and even cheaper age ups. We can give them cheaper dock techs but I wouldnt like to have to nerf the university bonus to oblivion to balance the cheaper dock techs. They also got the water unit that they have a bonus for buffed sustancially this patch

Its not a nerf though? Its actually a buff to pre-Tusken Swords BE

Never said it was. Just saying that it can be more efficient

Not gonna lie this is a huge red-flag that you’re more or less making this up without any significant analysis. The Italians are currently balanced on water which means (assuming you think they will stay balanced on water with this change) you equating ~1500 resources of castle and imperial age tech savings with maybe 175 resources up until castle age. This almost certainly implies outrageous things like giving a civ 150 resources upon researching feudal age is balanced relative to giving a civ 1500 resources immediately after reaching imperial age.


Fine, I just think that you will have to make the dock bonus around 25% to keep it balanced who just doesnt sound right when its that small. Would rather give them free techs (free caneering and dry dock or free shipwreck) honestly

Such a bad idea. Franks lost the HP boost in dark age because it would let them win scout fights all the time, but at least you could run back your scout to your TC to save it. Even on release they didn’t let the OP Cuman have bonus speed in dark age because it would let the Cuman player aggro the enemy scout knowing that said scout just can’t escape since it’s slower.


In that case starting on feudal, fine.


well then theirs a whole lot of unique units we should buff.

except the current winrates won’t be valid when the new patch goes live.

and they are awful in team games.

Several people are asking for buffs going in this direction.

I think the civ is fine atm. The nerf is small, but I don’t see the reason to nerf them

I am fine with this

Fine but my feeling is that the civ needs something more

Chinese need a much larger nerf imo

I agree the civ needs a buff. Not sure what tbh.

The unit is not that great but the civ is fine. However I have nothing against this proposal

Removing the farm bonus is a good idea, but first let us wait. We need to see as the upcoming nerf will impact.

You would remove 90% of their savings to give them not even 5% more…

Just, do the math before randomly suggest bonuses, you wouldn’t have to nerf the uni bonus to oblivion.

Considering that in water maps, only 2 uni techs are meaningful for the water meta, a 40% discounted dock and uni techs would still be less resources saved than the old 50% only dock discount (a bit less in castle, a huge difference in imp…).

Italians are in a decent spot right now, they aren’t completely dominant in the water maps like before, and they more solid on land maps, they need just small tweaks, not huge redesigns.

The bonus wasn’t OP for the SL, it was OP because your scout was always be able to outrun the opponent scout, so either always escape or always attack, on top of a better scouting.

If the bonus would become 5% faster cavalry from feudal plus free husbandry, now that would be balanced.

Well, but you are suggesting a nerf following by a buff for an overall nerf, without considering that they’ll be nerfed anyway.

The slavs siege is already strong, I don’t see why buff it.

The faster gold mining if fine, but SE would be too much, and it wouldn’t solve their problem which is that artillery has a ridiculous high stone cost.

Yes and no. Supplies is already a noob bait. So many noobs research it needlessly. It being cheaper is like a blursing. Noobs will be even more likely to pick it up early, but at least it would waste less resources…

Reduce base damage to 5/6 for SL, and 7/8 for Elite, add bonus damage vs archers and cav archers (and adjust cost if needed)

Feeling neutral about this.

Sounds like a step in the right direction, the civ is so bad right now, they were always garbage, but were at least carried by a good UU, but the UU is not that good as it once was.

Feeling neutral here.

Mmm, maybe instead of all this, I’d just make Chu Ko Nu a bit more expensive on gold.

No point to add it then.

I’d remove this whole bonus entirely, and add heavy camel. So dumb to have Camel and then not have the upgrade. It’s just frustrating, because Camels are great at what they do, but then if you cant upgrade them, you’re stuck with expensive garbage in imp.

I’d remove this, and add a replacement UT that gives kipchaks enough of a stat buff (more range and maybe 1 PA) to not be completely obsolete in imperial age. Readjust Castle Age stats if needed.

Why? Seems the unit is good as it is now.

Why? Franks are not so amazing on all map types. They’re just very good on Arabia and Arabia clones. They’re significantly worse performers on nearly all other map types.

The swapping of unique techs will make the civ a bit better in 1v1 and a bit weaker in team games, so I think the civ is looking fine.

Why nerf this civ? It’s a weak civ in most situations already.

Useless bonus. Completely. I’d just leave them as it is now, taking away this feudal armor bonus is a gigantic nerf to the civ. It’s like taking away Paladin from Franks level nerf.

This one is worth a thread of its own, but yeah, the Camel really needs a bit of boost. But the EA is probably worth a topic on its own. I also don’t like the Shatagni UT, it’s such a garbage tech. I’d much rather have a UT that can actually make the EA a viable unit.

I’d leave these civs as they are now. Maybe they are not perfect right now, but they don’t seem super broken. Yes, Italians are top tier on water, but this is balanced by being not so good on open land maps.

They don’t need bonuses for the lategame. Their lategame is strong. Problem is that they have one of the slowest booms. So probably this is what needs a little buff maybe.

I would leave the civ as it is right now, it’s a very strong civ, but also very hard to play, so it seems fair to me.

While I do hate to see useless UT’s, it seems hard for me to justify a buff to this civ.

I would just add back the 5% without the nerf.

No idea about that. 12 range with Block printing is already strong. Not sure whether monks outranging everything by such a giant margin is a good idea.

stirrups already giving %25 boost, they wrote wrong in techonology tree.
Also increasing fire rate is a bad thing for unit

Good suggestions, OP! I agree with most of your suggestions, here’s only what i dont agree with:

I agree with reducing the shotel food cost, but i think you might be underestimating how much difference 15 food makes for a unit that already only costs 50 food (so it would be a 30% food cost reduction, which i think is way too extreme)
making them cost -5 food should be perfectly fine and make them a strong unit in many situations.

You could make a case for goths warranting a nerf, but i think all of your ideas together would be too much of a nerf and put them back in assy-tier. Goths are pretty close to the median win rate civ, so any nerf at this point should be very minor.

That would risk making malay too strong in early castle age, but im not an elephant main, so :man_shrugging:

one idea ive had was making the effect of orthodoxy “monks benefit from infantry armor blacksmith techs”
so it would be 1/1 if you have only scale armor but 3/4 if you have all the armor techs

also double ram garrison capacity please. make it happen!

Apart from that, most of your suggestions are very good

I mean i mean i mean…
Lithuanians are stronger than byzantines…
No offence tho

except thats purely ladder play. in tournaments and at the pro level they are absolutely awful and if anything need love.

not on a pure water map they aren’t, and Lithuanians are stronger because their bonuses are more centralized to work together and they have a narrower tree. Byzantines bonuses all work towards survival and their wide tech tree means they can’t really specialize.

Shotels really don’t need a buff.

If you’re making a comment like that I’m not sure you really understand the point I was making.

OP implied players would be indifferent between the choices of age discount + cheaper ships + more uni discount over dock techs, which as an estimate implies players think the discount rate is around 8.5% per minute. But this high rate implies rate would imply that the Lithuanian bonus is ‘equivalent’ to a free imperial age at around 30m.

Almost certainly Lithuanian players would much prefer the free Imperial age which implies that the ‘real’ discount rate of the game is below 8.5%. That is an 8.5% return per minute is expected to give a profit, meaning the ‘real’ rate must be less than 8.5%. This realization means that 8.5% is far too high a discount rate and the Italian players would not be indifferent between the choices given and would value the dock techs significantly more.

saving 150 resources at the start of the game (lithuanians) is slightly but not much stronger than saving 700-ish resources by imperial age (turks/ethiopians/byziantines) how much stronger it is and what exactly the effective conversion rate is is pretty much still up for debate as far as i know…

Why do you think that point is relevant to what I wrote?