My Proposed Changes before the DLC

Focus is land based play only for these changes
Goal is nerf S Tier civs (Franks, Chinese, Mayans, Tatars, and Vikings) and Buff some of the weaker civs (Indians, Spanish, Teutons, Persians, Italians and Goths) as well as some unit changes.

Berry Bonus reduced to 20%
Chivalry and Bearded Axe swap places

these two changes work to slow down there boom, and also slow down their Imp age power spike

Techs are 5%/10%/15% cheaper

small nerf to Chinese tech swaps

Archers are 10%/15%/20% cheaper
Obsidian Arrows reduced from +6 to +4.

simple Military nerf to the civ.

Extra sheep spawn reduced from 2 to 1.

Small nerf to their boom potential.

Handcart is no longer instantly researched, but still free.

A small eco nerf

Stable Units gaining extra Pierce Armor is REMOVED completely.
Plate Barding Armor is restored.
Imperial Camels attack reduced from 9 to 8.
Imperial Camel training time increased to 22 seconds.

Increases their 1v1 power while nerfing their team game potential, more on this later

Builder Building bonus is doubled when working on houses and palisade walls.

Spanish now have a very minor early game buff to help them be a bit better overall

Dock Techs 40% Cheaper instead of 50%
Age up is 20% Cheaper instead of 15%
Italian Foot Archers and Skirms gain +1 PA starting in Feudal Age

These changes help Italians age up faster and give them a military bonus to help in the early game.

TK base Speed has been increased to 0.9
TK gains 25% extra conversion resistance.

small buffs to the TK.

Gain Plate Barding Armor

makes goths less 1 dimensional

All Camel units gain +1 Pierce Armor

Gives Camels better team game survival

Long swordsman
Upgrade cost reduced to 150 food and 50 gold and 40 seconds
movement speed increased to 0.95.

cost of tech reduced to 100 food and 75 gold.

THS and Champion
movement speed increased to 1.0.

these 3 changes are all aimed at making the militia line just a little bit stronger.

Steppe Lancer
Cost reduced to 60 food and 40 gold
ESL upgraded reduced to 600 food and 450 gold

small buff to the SL

Cavalry Archer
Frame Delay reduced from 35/46 to 28/26

buff to the cavalry archer


I like your general direction but a few of your ideas are a bit over the top from my understanding of the game.

The Mayans are so heavily nerfed I don’t see why I’d pick them anymore. I’d say pick one or max two of your nerfs but all three are a bit much.

The Indians are a bit boring after the change. Sure they will have powerful Imp Camels but what are they using in Castle Age in 1v1? With your ideas they will have generic camels apart from the bonus vs buildings. Maybe something cool for them in Castle? :slight_smile:

Maybe the Spanish buff helps a tiny bit with fc because of faster walling but I don’t see how it really helps them.

Italians get a lot here, they are fine as is, just a bit generic. I like the age up bonus and dock nerf, but the +1 PA stacks with Pavise and their arches would get too tanky I believe. Also it would horse shoe them too much in the archer direction. With the age up bonus they could be used for super fast Hoang rushes.

Idk about the Goths, the spam potential in Feudal would be quite annoying to play against. Right now you can play a super smoth drush into archers and I like it. Not sure if your idea helps them with playing standard.

The rest of your ideas sound nice to me and I’d like to test it out! :slight_smile:

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We all agree that this civ is OP. Well done

Ckn nerf is needed imo

Obviously this works

Maybe this is too much, but I like the general idea

I agree here as well

Not sure if this fixes the civ, but they have been clearly ruined by the last patch. What about arbalest? I thought you were fine with that

This proposal sounds good

They are the worst cic atm. By far.
I like the +1PA option. To make them less archer oriented, an alternative to the +1PA can be an eco bonus (e.g., military buildings -50w) or a generalized military bonus (e.g., all units attack 5-10% faster).

Idk, is this needed? Does it influence their game?

They are difficult, not sure if this is fine. Great idea the pop percentage.

This is a more general direction and I think it is ok

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i wouldn’t say that. they still have cheaper archers with an amazing long term eco and plumes and eagles.

they already get a huge eco boom in castle on top of crossbows and camels. its hard to justify giving them anything in castle age.

because they spend a lot less time building houses too which means they get back to eco faster. and spanish don’t need much. they aren’t a terrible civ, they just need some early game love and this gives them that.

they already get all sorts of discounts, i wanted to get away from that.

they need something, just not sure what.

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I only disagree with these. Goths are strong enough in the lategame and this removes their Dark Age bonus. Remember this civ has trash economy. Camels are strong enough and Indian Camels in Castle Age are a nightmare. CKS are perfectly balanced. Perhaps remove the Camel-line or nerf the technology discount. LS is the worst version of the Militia-line. It should have 1.0 speed too. Not sure if the Indian buff fixes the civ, but it’s definitely fixes some part of the stupidity of their design the devs have given to them. Perhaps buff Hand Cannoneers and Steppe Lancers?


I finally had ONE Steppe civ that does not Farm until Castle…

This one I do not think it is needed. Slowing down the Vikings will hardly affect them on Water, and will just be a minor annoyance on Land.


they still get instant loom and hunting. i wanted to move them from the cheese fest they are now to a civ that at least has some other options.

between getting most the upgrades and the cheaper infantry they don’t need an amazing economy bonus.

eh, their team game power is mediocre at best. (camels that is, not Indian camels).

i considered nerfing the tech discount but its a hard one to nerf without just making it useless early on.

i also gave that entire age steep discounts on LS upgrade and Supplies.

only on arena. on other maps they absolutely can’t get away with it.

it doesn’t get them extra villagers ahead, and the bonus doesn’t kick in right away. that alone helps.

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I agree with everything except those:

Overall Italians will have +1/2 armour on Archers and Skirms. Interesting, how about poor Genoese Crossbowman?

Teutons had 0.65 speed. With all of expansions it slowly increased to 0.80 and we must consider squires existence. Increase their melee armour or decrease food cost to 70 (from 80) make something different, it’s going to Cobra Car speed when we got 100th civ.

I hate them. I like Hussars and Cavalry Archers and this unit counters me. Don’t buff please.

%10 means in 200 pop game 20, 500 pop it’s 50. Nice suggestion. They will have full Hussars, Hussars are always useful.

My bad.

Username checks out…

I actually do not think Camels need a buff, but Indians need a reversal of the last patch.
Indians is just bad to play now. You Boom so hard, and then cannot even spam FU Hussars.

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you mean the unit that now trains much faster? GC is fine after the recent changes. if buffs are needed anywhere its Elite GC, but i’m going baby steps.

its not much of a buff. right now they take fully upgraded 5 damage in castle age from an xbow and die in 24 hits. post buff they would take 4 damage a hit and die in 30 arrows.

its not buffing Huskarls. its buffing Cavalry. why would i think about buffing their infantry by giving them armor?


This doesn’t change a single thing

This doesn’t address the problem with the tatars

This combined with this

Will make tgs unplayable again

Nerfing every thing about Mayans is a bit of a overnerf. Just nerf obsidian arrow and maybe the cost of el dorado but that’s it

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aKa should be just removed, what a ridiculous tech

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tatars were a crap civ before the buff. i’m taking half of it. their “get to castle age without farms lol” won’t happen.

Indian camels do less damage, and take longer to mass. furthermore all camels now at least have some team game viability, instead of just Indian camels.

15% laster longing resources is still intact, extra villager still intact, the power of el dorado is still intact.

Nah, they were not crap. They were a good middle of the road civ. The problem comes from the fact they have extra food AND free techs AND the hill bonus

No, you are making the indian camels even mor broken in castle age while not making the camels more viable in tg since everyone will just play 3 archery just like they used against indians and they will still die in matter of seconds

You are nerfing literally everything else the civ has while not touching the chinese that atm are the strongest 1v1 arabia civ 11

Just like the tatars hill bonus tbh. Obsidian arrow should just be like the saracen bonus

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And that extra food is what actually makes them OP just like how Persians were OP with the Dark Age workrate and FE was desperate to nerf Kamandaran.

And was the Hill bonus strong or worthy before the buff?

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literal tournament results disagree. they were used ONCE by Viper in King of the Desert 3. that isn’t middle of the road civ. especially when KotD3 literally had more hills then normal arabia, which shoulder cater to Tatars

there camels aren’t changing in castle age from where they are now. so how are they more broken in castle age?

I disagree about chinese being the strongest 1v1 arabia civ.


It is very interesting, unit with pierce armour or unit with attack bonus against cavalry. Just want to see that in-game.

Cavalry Archers does pierce damage and Camels are already great against them. So it’s not just crossbowman. Cavalry Archers has one more damage than Crossbowmen.

and yet whenever i ask viper, hera, etc, which civ needs to be nerfed, they never bring up chinese. it was aztecs or mayans or lithuanians or more recently tatars and franks.

no it just has more hills then standard arabia and is more open then standard arabia. perfect for a civ with hill bonuses and a really mobile army.

yes taking a whole 30 shots to kill is such a burden, seeing as you know, light cavalry take 27 shots and knights take 40.


true, and seeing as camels are supposed to counter them, giving them a survival buff against cavalry archers isn’t a huge deal either.
but cav archers do 8 damage with upgrades, 6 to camels after armor. which means camels take 20 shots for a cav archer to kill. post nerf it will be 24.

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