My Proposed Changes for the upcoming balance patch

Yes, I knew, I only suggested another variant of a possible bonus.
+1/1 for archers since feudal is a possibility, but even only +1PA for xbows and skirms from feudal (or even from castle) is a good and balanced bonus in my opinion.

Free archer armor tech isn’t a bad bonus, but it doesn’t suit Italians play style that well. Yes it’s on theme, and yes it let them save some time and resources, but over all their archers would still fall behind a lot of other archer civ.
Free armor would be a good bonus for strong archer rush civs, which italians aren’t.

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That is untrue. At the start of aoe2 DE, SL especially Cumans were OP since the developer overnerf them.
And they are not trash, I like SL, they are just a bit too expensive because you need to mass them.

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they are cheaper than knights but still lose vs knights with equal resources

and being worse against everything than a knight

cumans would be crap against every ranged civ and would be never picked in team games

I do not love the idea of +1 PA for archers only. For instance it is not that great vs knights. It is ok but nothing more

Some variations I like more:

  • A +1/1 armor as civ bonus is better since it is basically a free archer armor for just archers.
  • +1 PA to archers and skyrms is also nice
  • free archer armors and no extra armor as civ bonus. But pavise gives +1/2

The third one is my favorite tbh, since pavise is underpowered right now.
Still I agree with:

Then u never play with SL. They are situational and better to snipe enemies like Archer units. U need to micro a bit. SL have another game style than Knights.

Same why I compare with Indians. Camels are not designed for raiding. A lot complains the missing Knight Line for Indians though they don’t need Knights to be strong.

you don’t snipe archers better with SL than knights

Steppe Lancers have 40 (!) less hitpoints and 1 less pierce armor. They are almost as garbage against archers as camels

Elite Lancers have 80 less hitpoints 2 less pierce armor than a Paladin. They are terrible against Archers

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+1 (pavise only) or +2 MA (bunus+pavise) have the same effect, they take the same amount of hits from both knights/paladins and hussars, it would be better only vs pikes and camels, which are units that are already bad vs xbows.

Yes more MA it help occasionally here and there, but I would prefer more PA (+1 from the bonus and +1 from pavise) and maybe sacrifice the MA for extend the bonus to skirms (they would receive only the +1 from the bonus, not the +1 from pavise).

Yes that’s what I was proposing, however anything would still be a huge step forward, and better than nothing.

Yes but if you improve the unit (xbow) with another bonus it would become a very good tech.
Basically you would get half bonus for free, and half for a price, but overall it would be a very good bonus.

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I’m pretty sure your not the only one to complain about this. But yeah why you don’t play with Franks or Teutons? They have stronger Paladin. SL would be nearly as cheap as Infantry units! They used to be OP for a good reason.

No, they are used to be OP because the cost (you mentioned), the damage output (damage + fire rate), mobility and very small collision box

Cuman pocket with Paladins are commonly used because of their strong economy and Imperial Age Kipchaks are significantly worse than Castle Age Kipchaks. Cumans might make the most Paladins in the game

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Independent from the statement, this is a pointless answer since it is true for you aswell

That’s true thats a base strategy of Cumans in Team Game. Then I take away the Cumans Pocket with Paladin and give them a new Identity. I think that won’t much hurt since you can went back to other Civ for this strategy.
I’m pretty sure they will be used as a new meta, probably raise base reload time to 1.9, that’s my proposal but more would make SL OP.

Guys why don’t you just split this topic into several others (for example one for each civ)? It’s getting quite messy and the developers will hardly be able to record anything you say.

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You’re right, we need to collect all the ideas into a list. When I have time I can do it.

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What identity? 0% pick rate as in team games?

Paladins must be in the Cuman tech tree

Steppe Lancers should be a different unit, not a Paladin 2.0.

First off all they need major buffs

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I agree, Cumans is one of those civs that is wholly dependant on Paladins in the lategame, just like Franks.

Their HCA does not even have Bracer, so they are a dead investment, and SLs are not good for nothing outside raiding (at which they excel, to be honest).

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You cannot be serious with this

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My problem with just free archer armor and pavise buff is that you are not helping italians at all in feudal (plus you need a castle for pavise). They need something to keep up with the other civs sooner. I think bonus +1/+1 armor would do the trick, it would give italians a bit of a power spike in feudal which should be enough to let them reach castle somewhat “safely” (of course, it always depends on many other factors).

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In order to make the Cumans less dependent on Paladins, I think they should receive Siege Engineers. Almost all civs without bracer have siege engineers and would allow their onagers to fill in a bit for the lack of range anywhere else. Only two that don’t are Malians who I think should receive it as well and Persians which don’t have bracer for obvious reasons due to Kamadaran. Alternative would be to give them Bombards but think that’s likely a bit much.

Additionally, would be nice to distinguish the speed bonus a bit more. The extra 5% is not super noticeable as basically every non-Meso civ has husbandry except Teutons which get extra armor for free and Vikings whose cavalry are generally useless regardless. I would advocate for +5% / +10% in FA / CA and give them husbandry or add +5% across the board in the existing bonus. Could lower Kipchak speed by 5% to be neutral in a subsequent patch if this becomes too oppressive

I think between Elite Kipchak +1 damage and Siege Engineers they would be in great shape. Speed bonus would be a nice to have

They would still be massively dependant on Paladins, since they do not have any other good frontliner (they have Hussars, but those are not really frontline troops) and their Cav Archers are incredibly subpar in the Imperial Age.

That +1 Range they miss really does hurt them a lot.

It actually is, since Cumans have the only paladins and Hussars that can actually run from Camels.
Not only that, but that extra 5% speed is really good for Imp Age raiding, since you get exposed to less attacks, by virtue of being faster.

Speed bonus was 10% stacked with Husbandry. It was too strong

Cumans didnt have gunpowder irl

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