Natural progression or change of the essence of the game?

i was talking even back to generic aoe3 vs generic aoe2 days though. even back then aoe2 clealry outstripped aoe3.

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Wars of Liberty is for SP only tho. Their ideas go in every damn direction, the devs pretty much gave up on late game balance for the simple reason you can’t make stuff like Haitian (villagers that NEVER.FREAKING.DIE) and Bulgarian (your villagers are also pikemen cuz you can’t train actual military before age FOUR) equal.

People who care about the design of AoE2 would probs lose sleep after reading the bonuses of most WoL civs 11

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Well, considering I play SP mostly I don’t mind crazy civs as long as they don’t feel underwhelming. They are a lot of fun :smiley:

I still don’t get how you can find a civ “underwhelming” in single player when pretty much everything can be used to destroy the AI. Especially in WoL since many civ concepts are just too complicated for the AI to use.

Eco boni help in any game modus. It’s definitely not as cutthroat like MP (main reason I prefer SP over MP), but it’s still useful.

Novelty is more important in SP. The Donjon-Serjeant mechanic sounds really interesting on that regard and the second Feudal TC of the Cumans is one of my fav aspect of the Last Khan expansion.

It’s fine. In The Conquerors, adding Meso-American civs without cavalry didn’t break the game. Adding Huns who don’t need Houses didn’t break the game. Missionaires didn’t break the game. Or in AOK, Goths not being able to build stone fortifications and having a UU almost immune for arrowfire, Briton archers with their ridiculously long range, Chinese starting with three extra villagers and Saracens having a super-cheap market.

There’ll always be ways to balance things out. The main issues with the new civs are the Coustillier for the Burgundians and First Crusade for the Sicilians, both of which are overpowered. So I’m sure that will be fixed in the next update. Perhaps a few other things as well, like the cheap Paladin upgrade for the Burgundians.

This DLC is great news for this game. All AOE1DE players are jealous right now. Yes, it’s 10$ and not entirely balanced yet, but in the end it is still amazing we’re getting new content again.

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Should Cumans be given their 10 “free” Kipchaks immediately upon research now that we have civs which can spawn so many units? (up to 50 Serjeants at once, or 140+ Flemish Pikemen)

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I’m pretty sure it won’t be the last time it will happen :slight_smile:

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We got AoE1, Aoe2, AoE3 and will get AoE4. More content for people that love historical RTS is coming anyways. We even have AoM. If people want more gimmicky civs and content, there are a lot of other games do go to and a whole new game coming out soonish. I would prefer there to be no new content. Just leave the game alone besides balancing.

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Disagree on that regard. AOE2 is in my opinion the best Age of Empires game period. I would love to see new content for the other titles in the franchise too but if that would mean no more new content for AOE2, I’d honestly want Forgotten Empires to keep producing new content for AOE2:DE.

This broke the game so bad in my opinion.

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I totally agree. This would have been great UT.

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Agreed. Some of the community hoped for these changes before the DLC release. And so the added passive effects to Burgundian Vineyards and Flemish Revolution feels like a rushed compromise to try and please everybody. But those two UT’s ought to be passive effects only.

As for the Sicilians, I’m imagining they get Watch Tower, but no Keeps or Guard Tower as Donjons are the Guard Tower replacement. First Crusade now unlocks training Serjeants in Donjons and building Donjons with Serjeants, with adjustments to Serjeant stats to compensate having their gimmicks now locked behind a UT. Scutage could give a team-wide passive gold discount instead of an instant one-time payment. This probably wouldn’t make sense in relation to the IRL mechanics of the scutage tax laws, but whatever. I very much doubt something even similar to all of this will happen. But it’s fun to imagine.

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I think that the devs are improving and diversifying the game for the better. But I do share your sentiment–and fear–that this game may eventually turn into an entirely new game.

I actually made a post back in October last year, warning both the devs and the entire community of AoE gamers, about new updates/changes possibly ruining the game in the long term. Be sure to check out what I said on the post, and the following replies if you like: BE careful about New updates/changes - Age of Empires II: DE / II - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum

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Huh…I for one think that cavalry civs in AoE2 are TOO POWERFUL at times. The fact that Tartars, Cumans, Bulgarians, AND Lithuanians are ALL cavalry civs is telling that cavalry civs are the most popular.

Yeah…there are some non-cavalry civs that are overpowered, such as the Archery civ Britons, or the infantry-rushing Goths…but cavalry civs are really the King Civs of Age of Empires 2. No question.

I love the Flemish Revolution tech. It might have to be a bit toned down, perhaps. But it is good that their is another anti-cavalry unit at play. (you might even say that the DLC “balances it out” since it brings yet another powerful cavalry civ: the Burgundians, with their cheaper tech Cavaliers and Paladins and Hussars)

Tbh you can’t really make an expansion about steppe civs without making them cavalry civs.

The deal with the flemish militia is that it’s supposed to counter cav raids (that’s even what they show in the trailer) but since it makes you have 0 villager anymore, you did exactly what the opponent wanted you to…

Glad there are so many other people with similar opinions on the matter.

Up until now, I’ve been fine with pretty much everything. I can’t help but feel that the DLC is detracting from the ge by introducing lements that don’t fit within the classical nature of the game.

IMO there’s still more work to he done, refining the game and polishing what is already a complex ge that doesn’t need any more new features that it doesn’t already have.

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I strongly feel the new unique techs vastly changes the mechanics of the game.

  • Meso Civs with no cavs
  • Indians with no knightline
  • Konniks
  • Kreposts
  • Kipchaks
  • Siege Towers
  • Caravels
  • Incan villagers getting blacksmith upgrades

These (and many others until the latest DLC) are all innovations WITHIN the framework of the standard gameplay, which can be summarized as:

  • Inf (BEAT) buildings/cavs (BEAT) Archers (BEAT) Inf
  • Siege can beat all and can also be beaten by all the above (even villagers).
  • Monks + Relics add an additional layer of complexity.
  • Only Villagers can collect resources and build.

Except for unique units like Mameluke/Throwing Axeman/Genoese Crossbow/Arambais, you know that the above mechanics hold true.

Villagers are such an important resource simply because they’re the only units that can collect resources and build. (Feitoria / Relics / Fishing Ships can only supplement - not entirely replace Vills. And none of them can build)
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I’ll draw some comparisons with Chess here.
Villagers/TCs/Production Buildings combined are like the King - weak in fighting and cannot defend itself but is the most guarded unit. If you Checkmate the King, the game is over - no matter how strong is your military.
Same with AOE2 - a lead of 25 military isn’t as strong as a lead of 25 Vills.
Lose all your TCs and a big chunk of your Vills and it’s almost always game over.
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But the latest unique techs are ridiculous. Converting all villagers instantly to military units?
Instant gold payment simply based on the military being fielded? Military units that can build?
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Chess has the concept of Promotion, wherein the lowest unit Pawn can be converted to any of the other units (except King). And this is a well known essential mechanic of the game. Most of the game strategy is defined by this. Player A will try to create a path for pawn promotion and Player B will pull all plugs to stop it.

But in the case of Flemish Revolution, you can’t predict or react in a suitable manner. It’s not like a Wonder or Relic victory, wherein you get a global timer and have time to react.
They should atleast have a concept of existing Villagers garrisoning into TCs for a period of time, then come out as Flemish Militia or something. Instant conversion makes NO sense.
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And the Serjeant building the Donjon is the most ridiculous mechanic. Now this military unit, which is pretty hardy even in feudal, can just sneak through and build Donjons, train more Serjeants and you get the picture. One unit can absolutely wreak havoc in the enemy base. It should be named virus

All this while you can happily train Vills at your base, building your economy. No need to worry about forward Vill losses at enemy bases.

Kreposts cannot be compared to Donjons since Kreposts still need villagers to build. So there’s always a danger of Kreposts being denied if you try to build too close to the enemy base. You can’t send 20 Vills forward for a Krepost rush and damage your economy. (It is a viable strategy, but has tradeoffs).

But with Donjons - no such tradeoff. Happy economy at home, while Sejeants can Donjon rush.
And the fact that they’re available from Feudal Age? Come on! Way too OP!
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Overall, I’m OK with the generous Civ/Team bonuses for the new Civs. But these unique tech mechanics make no sense and I’m outraged.

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It’s a huge eco sacrifice. If your push fails, you have nothing left at home. With a proper rebalance which will probably be a nerf for the Flemish Militia, it’s not a win button like some people make it out to be. It’s also pretty expensive and takes a relatively long time to research. There’s a way to properly balance it.

Paper Money doesn’t ring a bell to you? It’s also with a huge gold cost, so it isn’t a no-brainer. Yet again with proper balancing which takes time, you can easily balance it.

Norse in AOM are balanced, why shouldn’t that be possible within the AOE2 context? Especially if only one single unit can do it. Nerf the stats in Feudal if it’s too strong. It also comes with a hefty price tag (60 food 35 gold is not nothing for a Feudal economy) and considering that the Donjon is pretty expensive compared to regular towers, you can easily punish a Sicilian player with a tower rush on your own. Donjons are also easier to rush down because they have a 2x2 base rather than a 1x1 base.

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Is ther actually? Im not too sure about that. If you sacrifice all your villagers it will either be a “you have one strong push or you lose” button, or a “well you could pay a small fee to commit suicide” button.
Unless its completely reworked I do not see a chance for a good balance with this tech.

Norse in AOM are balanced, why shouldn’t that be possible within the AOE2 context?

Yes, it can be balanced, from all that Ive seen so far it is definitely not op. But as you said, it is, same as flemish revolution a mechanic from AoM, a game that is much more gimmicky than AoE2, and therefore simply doesnt belong in the game.

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