as you said:
we are not in Alice and the Wonderland world!!
but serious, I see here 2 kind of armys, cav + archer and spears + Zhuge Nu.
Wheres the problem?
You could blame the player also for not making mangonels, or not?
This corroborates what I mentioned before.
serious, there is one big counter for mass archers, MANGONELS!!! mix it in and you destroy them.
1 Like
Vortix tiene mĂĄs valor militar de caballerĂa que de unidades de arqueros.
Stop. Cavalry units are already crazy good and mangonels exist to deal with the critical mass issue.
3 Likes
I am not sure, both armys have the same worth? again one or two mangonels are a game changer against mass archer. I still see no problem. @HasanIchess
again I dont think both armys have the same value worth 
but of course if your opponent has such a mass army maybe you did something wrong a few minutes before?
and I think the thread isnt only feudal, if so sorry.
I agree the flow of the game wasnât all dedicated in that singular fight;
likely smaller engagements and advantages were had prior to that large clash. HOWEVER, I still hold to the idea that horseman SHOULD delete range units efficiently to force the creation of spearman in larger mass
Tbh, this is more of an issue with horseman pathing which should probably be updated. Sipahi due to their extra range (and sometimes their ability) are actually really good against archers in relatively even numbers. The biggest issue they have is dealing with the spearmen to get on top of archers.
The puppypaw clip above is like 10 sipahi and 20-30 archers against 75 archers and a few spears, so no wonder they lost, they army is drastically smaller/cheaper.
2 Likes
I disagree!!! Sipahi have THE longest attack range of any cavalry minus war elephants (kekw); if you deduce the major negative factor to why they are being deleted by the unit they counter? is pathing; then all other inferior range attack melee are inherently doomed!!!
A point made earlier in the thread was how range in themselves MAY not be OP but in reasonable mix of spearman/body blockers, range unit becomes excessively efficient.
Allow me to revisit this theme. Letâs keep the range plus body blocking thing as is!! But since pathing and individual micro ing of cav onto range units becomes implausible in mass; make all melee cavalry more expensive BUT also make them all as potent vs range as spearman are vs cav and at the same time allow them to drink non bonus dmg arrows for breakfast!!!
Horseman as a unit have the most issues with pathing for some reason. It might be something that happens more at higher levels, but cav units can melt archers if they get a good surround (just path them into the archers before attacking. I think it has something to do with hitboxes or something, but generic horseman have a significantly harder time consistently attacking microing archers than other military units like knights or MAA.
Horseman are pretty tanky vs archers, they do currently take 3 damage in feudal and 4 at later ages. The main issue is that horseman often struggle actually hitting them while all archers can shoot.
Tbh the bigger thing is that a handful of spearman provide a ton of threat to the horseman, so that they get stuck and canât even attack the archers at all. The horseman donât even get to hit archers until all the spears die usually.
1 Like
Letâs use real numbers so i might demo my alleged dilemma.
Feudal horsemen has 125hp 2 range armor 9 base dmg 9 bonus dmg vs range on 1.75s attack speed and cost 120 resources and takes 22.5s to train.
Meanwhile feudal longbowmen have 70hp no armor 6 base dmg 1.62 attack speed cost 90 resources and takes 15s (landmark 7.5s).
Assume in a perfect horsemen attacking world whereby they could be-line to their respective targets unimpeded and could consistently execute a melee attack every 1.75s from their original attackâŠ(already this assumes something woefully impractical especially in large mixed masses). In this scenario horsemen would kill a longbowmen in 4 strikes which is 7 seconds. The question is how much dmg could the longbowman (without paling) inflict on said horsemen in 7 secs? The longbowman would inflict a measly 16 damage!! This o where your point stands; in small engagements between horsemen and range, assuming decent pathing the horsemen will prevail.
My point is these perfect scenarios are not just impractical but complete breakdown once archers reach critical mass especially with a mix of spearmen. Once critical range mass is achieved it actually becomes highly efficient to focus fire the horsemen while stutter stepping away. Sadly even a surround by the cavalry is extremely hard to achieve bc of the sheer number needed to form the body blocking surround AND the horsemen HAS to be stationary in order for the game to force other units to not share the same footing. Basically even if it looks like youâre body blocking an emey unit, if your unit moves, the game will permit the enemy to effectively walk thru you.
Long story long, if given the option to super duper micro manage your cav ina high risk but low reward scenarios vs micro ing #### ##### ball presenting you will low risk high reward? Which are yoi gonna pick?
Oh i forgot a point. With archer spearman mass; you can easily A move your spearman while focusing down whatever enemy unit of our choice. Maybe sometimes you have to pull your spears in and out. But the opposing cav army has not only to in and out his cavalry while his archer focus down your spearman but he canât merely A move his cav for fear they will attack the closest unit to them aka spearman. But at the same time if one selects an archer to attack, all the horsemen will desperately attempt to hit that single archer for a long time before they default to the nearest target.
So not just a pathing delimiter but also optimal targeting issue.
To be fair, you are also using a unique unit vs a generic unit as a comparison.
Also when performing a surround against archers, you generally arenât trying to bodyblock them from getting away, but because if you are able to have your horseman surround and then a move, all the horseman attack, which does kill archers pretty fast.
The big thing is that the spears counter the horseman harder than the horseman counter archers because they are ranged. If you reduce archer base damage though, they would become really useless, and feudal MAA and knight civs would become oppressive.
Horseman donât struggle to kill archers if they get in melee range at all, but spears make that relatively hard.
1 Like
If you dont have enough to one shot said archers nor enough to completely body those archers youâll be forced to RE surround every attempt attack.
Look up the finals game between lucifron and beasty delhi mirror. One of the final engagement, lucifron had his whole cavalry army on top of beasty archer mass, SURROUND!! but after every 2 or 3 attacks, beasty would successfully remove all his remaining archers from being surround; then lucifron will immediately do it again and again. Although lucifron won that bout and eventually that game, lucifron cav had a harder micro to pull off to keep his cav on top of Beastyâs archers!! Mine you all that stuff lucifron did ONLY worked bc beasty was allergic to making spearman (and his own horsemen were out on the map raiding and couldnât be present to body block).
It should not be this hard to make a proper counter effect. IMO
Im not sure that was a great example. Lucifron crushed beasty in the only fight in that game.
Lucifron lost 0 cav in the first part (to be fair beasty was mostly running because he got caught.) Lucifron got 4 attacks off with his cav and reduced Beastyâs archer numbers from 25 to 11 (plus a newly created one bringing it to 12).
Lucifron ended up cleaning the army with spears/ghazi raiders and Beasty surrendered like 15 seconds later.
By the end of the fight, Lucifron lost 5 ghazi raiders even while fighting under the TC.
The fight example is perfect to illustrate the singular point that a surround is difficult to accomplish. Yes beasty got caught with his pants down but beasty was alstill able to slip away; but lucifron out micro keep on top of him and overwhelm beasty.
Fair, that comes back to the pathing issue that I mentioned when it comes to horseman. Spearman wouldnât have stopped the surrond since the cav werenât charging, but they would have done tons of damage to the Ghazi raiders.
Beasty kind of slipped away, but there was nowhere to go in this instance. By the time he had slipped the archers away a bit, the destroyed army value of the fight was 2300 resources to 700,
Consider this is a match between 2 of the best?? One guy had the clear military mass an composition advantage and still had to really work to be optimal in the fight referenced? And i am confident had beasty had spearman that fight may at worse ended up in a trade.
So how is the average player supposed to achieve these favorable outcomes (on the cavalry side) given this level of micro management difficulties?
When thereâs no spears on the field, this type of fight isnât particularly hard to micro (not any more so than the archers targetting). You just right click open ground past the archers and then when you walk far enough, a-move, repeat.
I just thought it was an odd fight to pick since it was basically Lucifron destroying beastyâs enitre army with barely any losses in like 15 seconds. It was one of the most one-sided fights in the whole series.
Like Beasty was caught with his pants down. If Lucifron knows what to do, that play is super easy. The only way to mess it up is to accidently right click something that isnât open ground.