Nerf Gurjras and other Indian dynasty

To me the civ winrates suggest that they’re good against the fixed metas and opponent players are yet to adapt to and are unable to estimate possible strats or unit strengths from these civs. Nerfing them prematurely or severely would lead to the Cumans/Bulgarians situation where they went from being one of the best to being a very mediocre and niche map civ.

While its true that any civ shouldn’t be OP, a strong civ with different types of units and a non-meta gameplay should be encouraged.

Yeah it was the Idea "get map control fast and still have a good castle time to make use of it.
But it doesn’t work, it’s still too slow and a FC build has enough time to make some knights or xbows to push you away before you can have some monks.

You can’t even use camels or spears cause camel scouts die to knights and you don’t have the pikeman upgrade. So the concept is just not working as intended. I thought with that food bonus maybe Gurjaras could make such a build but maybe “fortunately” it’s not practicable.

Maybe that’s my problem with arena, I always want to make something different there…

But the 27+1 castle drop into 2 tc one is something unique enough imo. It’s actually practicable though maybe not the best strat overall.

What I can’t really figure out is why gurjaras have such a high winrate on arena it would only make sense if you would eat the sheep to get better timings cause all other builds some other civs can effectively compete with. I can’t see any other big advantage gurjaras have in arena.
I think my 20 pop everything is possible buiöds are nice for arabia. Though I may adjust them at some point, maybe make them one pop more but better against drushes, cause seems like lot of people know that gurjaras are kinda weak to that. 21 pop double range archers or 22 pop maa archers is nothing to be ashamed of.
My plan is to prepare a defensive barracks quite early just in cause to get drushed so I can counterdrush and evenutally even upgrade to maa after fighting off the opponent drush. With one more pop you can also justify to first scout the opponent before pushing in your deer.

I actually like this about Gurjaras a lot. And I think that should be kept in somehow. What I think causes them to have that high winrates is the combination of timing + a unique roster that is hard to deal with if you are an age behind.
So by just playing with the timing advantages gurjaras have I want to get the feedback wether it’s the eco that makes them so strong on the ladder or the combination. And if it’s the combination I would probably prefer if their unit roster gets nerfed a bit (eg by nerfing the damage bonus and shrivamsha could lose 5 HP but +1 dodge which would make it easier to counter with feudal units).
That’s why I try to make the best possible builds to “abuse” their eco bonus to exclude it’s just the eco bonus. If you understand the reasoning.

So far nobody gave the feedback that these builds would be OP, so I’m kinda confident their eco bonus can be kept. At least in 1v1 :wink:

Yep, Shrivamsha Riders feel like the least OP thing about Gurjaras and really might need a little buff.

For nerfing I’d start with the 50% bonus damage and tune it down to something like 40%.

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I think somebody already calced that 33 % would be the right call cause of how many hits are needed to kill knights etc.
Also 9 and 18 are good divisionable by 3.

It’s just really hard to deal with shrivamsha if you are still in feudal, that is the thing. It’s not OP in general but situational. When shrivamsha raid your eco you can basically call it. If you thought knights would be the ultimate raiders then shrivamshas tell you different.

Why nerf a bonus that makes Camels only better vs cavalry? especially when Gurjaras lack pikemen.


Well tbh there really is no point in doing that. You want map control to fight for relics and to push in castle age. Before that point the only thing I can think of is having military early enough to prevent forward castle but you can do that with fc builds just fine. Also you oftentimes don’t even know if your opponent isn’t producing UU from home.

I’m pretty convinced it’s the best approach to eat all the sheep after your boars run out. You still around 300 food for free on top of 250 more available from extra berries. That’s an insane eco boost for fc. That basically enables you to go light cav and get almost instant tcs behind that. You virtually get the advantage here every single time.

Best light cav relic play in the game (eco, starting camel and extra bonus dmg on scouts) and great unit comp that are super hard to counter. You basically always wanto mass shakram throwers and then add either shrivamshas or camels dep3on what opponent does. Also you have bbc and at least al monk upgrades in castle age. Btw shrivamshas is single best counter in game to all these UU castle drop pushes from turks portuguese spanish and what not.

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Are you sure that works? Like if the enemy gets under the castle you can’t touch them since said castle depletes the bar so fast.

So far worked every single time. You just micro back and forth and then 2 or 3 armored elephants clean the castle easily. You need to buy a little bit of time though.

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So maybe shrivamsha needs a rework…
I already explained in the shrivamsha thread that I think the way that dodge mechanis is implemented is weird and actually “the worst” against xbows cause xbows are cheap and fire fast.

Better would be a “damage dodge” system imo. Standard shrivamsha could dodge 25 damage (6.25 xbow shots in comparison to the current 5) and Elite coudl dodge 40 (8 arb shots in comparison to the current 7).
This would reduce the amount of hits they dodge from jans to 1.8 and from conqs to 1.9.

Or maybe not every unit that is new needs a rework, especially not when it is available for a month and not figured out yet and when it is literally a karambit on a horse that is great at what the tech tree describes it to do

I mean if they do counter GP UU there is nothing wrong with that (that’s just one civ that can touch janissaries in castle age, hardly going to make anything unviable) Tying the shield to the damage dealt is probably going to make them barely different from a high pierce armour unit.

It still helps against strayfire and make arrow dodging more rewarding.
So yes it makes a difference. And no I don’t think it’s a good mechanic that it is especially good against expensive bad rof units cause they are already in a kinda bad spot except for these arena clown strats.

And as far as I know many arena players love jans and conqs exactly because they add these clownery stuff in otherwise extremely lategame heavy setting.

Another Idea I already proposed here if this dodge mechanic is to stay was to give them even +1 dodge but -5 hp. That would allow spears and pikes to kill them in 1 less hit. So they would still hardcounter conqs etc. but they would be extremely hard countered by spears and pikes in return.
This could also solve it but in a different way.

Tbh I think the design is totally fine. They perform very well vs xbows it’s just not an early castle age thing. You probably open with your own xbows, skirms or mangos and after some booming you can start massing them. Kinda like old indians light cav style. This way they are different from knights that at some point might overwhelm xbows by their base stats. Also high food and low gold cost fits that playstyle imo.

Exactly. And it’s not you can easily boom behind. If you want to open with shravamshas here you basically need to stay one tc. If you have a perfect base you might be able to squeeze in 2nd tc but that’s very risky. Also this strat isn’t some kind of auto win you need to actually click a lot 11 Your opponent will probably try to garrison units in castle and then ungarrison on other sides to not let their units die. And if you take a bad engagement and lose all your riders (which certainly can happen if you slip up) you’re pretty much dead.

Lastly if opponent adds monks it gets tricky as these are decent vs riders and can also convert siege elephants without redemption. I think the last game vs turks I would have lost if opponent knew that.

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you can also just add a few scouts to your shrivamshas and monks aren’'t a problem anymore.
shrivamshas are also not the best targets for monks cause they are not that expensive.

But I certainly agree that monk defense should work just fine against gurjaras in arena. And their lategame isn’t the best. Maybe the top arena civs just need to be patient and rely on their lategame power.

I don’t think that works. You already struggle for food and spending food for light cav upgrade and second armor means you won’t get new shrivamshas out any time soon. Bc if you don’t get these upgrades your scouts die like flies to opponents castle. With this kinda of play you really want to pump your food into shrivamshas and siege elephants otherwise your opponent adds support units and then you kinda are out of options.

Well from the games I played (including at least 5 gurjaras mirror 11) I don’t think you need to defend vs gurjaras. Oftentimes they go 4 tc and be later to imp to get huge farming eco. Their post imp seems to be one of the strongest. If you let them get to their desired comp you probably die unless your teutons (not sure which other civs could be considered counter to gurjaras here, maybe something like hindustanis italians but idk).

Shouldn’t gurjaras just die to infantry/siege?

Sicilians should do good as well because serjeants don’t take much from any Gurjara unit. 5 TCs → click button → ez clap


From whatI heard Gurjara’s power in arena comes from their armoured eles

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frontier ele archers +camels just melt those

Lol no. Spearmen will be the unit that actually melt through those.

Either way Gurjaras have bombard cannons so they will be fine