Nerf Gurjras and other Indian dynasty

ok then how abt chakram + frontier ele archers

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it looks like the strong inf/siege civs generally do quite well against gurjaras. So I think it’s indeed the main counter. Only teutons is a bit weird to me. Imo Teutons should be one of the best against gurjaras.

BBC without SE. They are OK, but many of the top arena civs have fu bbc

Andimo neither kshatryas nor frontier guards are worth it on arena if there is only one big battle that decides everything (which is usually the case in this kind of boom into military games). Kshatryas must be researched too early and frontier guards is too expensive.

hmm thinking about dlc India being religious land there is no monk civ. how abt giving monk bonus to dravidians or bengalis would that balance it?

SE-less bbc should still deal with the counters to your UU (or your HCs) just fine though

Bengalis are almost a monk civ tbh

No civ is monk civ that lacks heresy…
(laugh in burmese)

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How is that? they have no bonus for that

Yeah but almost full monk tree means if theres a monk civ they prob should be them

Can’t believe this coming from someone who wants to make Dravidians a twin sibling of Malay.

Is their eco too strong? Maybe after Kshatriya as you still have 1 and a quarter extra farmer in your mill and there are plenty of food as left over. Since you can push all the deer in Arena, the loss of 450 food from sheep paying back slowly doesn’t hurt at all. And Chakram is an awesome unit in Arena. Only heavy cavalry is good against them but the existence of ultra super camel really makes opponent think twice b4 going to cav. Also in arena you won’t want to play cav in the first place I guess.

It is a good bonus. Strong with time but never OP.

I’ll be careful to buff them. Elite upgrade cost can be reduced by 200 food. But base stats of unit need a tweak at best, not just direct buff. 15 seconds CD time to regenerate full HP is insane.

Agree. Siege Elephant is OP though. Cheaper, faster to train and better than SR. So maybe limit the bonus to camel only will be a good change.

I know someone who will love to see a monk bonus for Bengalis. (Not me)

If you get SO i guess so. But imo SO isn’t worth it most of the time if opponent has bbc. And you don’t need even large amount of shakram thrower to one shoot siege weapons. Halb SO monk should be good though (but not really easy to micro).

Well against shakrams, yes, good point. But serjeants are countered very well by hc (it’s maybe the single weakest gold infantry vs hc) and I figure camel hc wins vs cavalier serjeant (just a guess didn’t play that one before).

No. Not all. Elephant archers die hard to SO and you don’t have even parthian tactics so your elephant archers aren’t even that good vs halbs. Bengali are way better for that. You don’t have bbc but you have monks which gurjaras can’t use here. Shakram thrower is better here as you can at least run from SO shots.

Teutons is THE counter vs gurjaras on arena. But teutons never shine in these stats because they are more difficult to play than other arens civs so that’s not really astonishing imo.

I disagree with both of these. That’s maybe true for the clown and vintage arena versions of last tourney but in regular arena you can get pretty often to exoensive comps and UTs (and there are more expensive ones than gurjaras).

I know someone too (not me ofc).

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As I said, I’m open to other ideas for making that terrible civ usable.

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I made an adapted buildorder for the new gurjaras. It is intended to be an archer buildorder.
(For the new gurjara mill mechanic available in the current PUP)

The Idea is to make 2-3 mills instead of 1. This way you can use your scout to scout your opponent cause you can mill your deer. You also get faster Food income. It is fast enough that you should be able to basically sustain your TC productio with 3-4 vills on berries. Because of the extra mills you build in Dark age, you get up 2 vills later though. Idk which build is better, but I think both have their pros and cons. I personally prefer the new one cause it allows you to scout the opponent.

Villager Action Further actions
1-3 Houses Berries + make Mill
4 Berries under TC
5 Berries under TC
6 Lure Boar Finish Berry Bush, then 5 on boar under TC
7 Straggler
8 Straggler
9 Straggler
10 House => Lumber Camp
11 Lumber Camp Send Straggler Vills to Lumber Camp
12 2nd Boar
13 Straggler
14 Straggler
15 House = > Mill Deer Send Straggler Vills to build Mill on Deer
16 Mill Deer Que the mill builders to the deers so they shoot 1by1
17 Berries Send 3(-4) sheep from your first mill to 2nd
18 Berries Que 4 of your Boar vills to 2nd Lumber Camp, 2 to Berries under TC
19 Waller
20 Waller
21 Waller (Build 3rd Mill with one of your Foragers on the other side of your Berries)
Loom (if necessary drop food from your hunters and foragers)
up to Feudal (Send 2 sheep from your first mill to the 3rd)

Don’t overestimate the extra Food income from the extra mills. It’s 10 (2nd mill) and 6 (3rd mill) food per minute.

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Tried this 3-4 times. Very tight build, especially around 2nd boar luring time. And a few times I was able to wall fully and do the eco approach but I guess you can only do a defensive archer into eco with this build.
Very vulnerable to any pre-mill drush or other early attacks. But could be a great build for TG and closed maps.

Oh btw, many times the boar pathing around the bush, far deer etc kinda messed up the build a lot.

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I currently work on a different build that should be less tight and more “flexible”.
This one is about making the 2nd mill first and then the lumber camp. I will tell when it’s ready.

And thx for the feedback :+1:

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Ok I have a build to go up to feudal, but I can’t really explain how to distribute the vills from that on.
Cause you need a lot of wood income from there which you get from chopping stragglers - it’s experience to know when to take them off there and where to put them. The build is kinda “flexible” but you need a lot of experience to make it work.
To add some complexity to it, the hardest part is even the start cause to make that build work you need to learn a unique form of early scouting.

Scouting Explanation:
Cause you want to find your deer asap you “skip” the first layer of scouting with your scour and go immediately to the second “layer”. This leaves an empty gap you have to scout with your sheep. Which is tricky cause of the multitasking. I tried to learn it by making a “dry test” without caring about the TCs and vills, just using the scout and the sheep.

So it’s definetely a hard to master buildorder but if you get it, it should be kinda flexible, allowing you to go for whatever you want: Wall + Archers, Spear + Archers, Skirms, Scrush, Trush … (only drush and MAA isn’t possible)
It’s again a 20 pop build.

Villager Action Further actions
1-3 Houses Berries + make Mill
4 TC Berries
5 TC Berries
6 Lure Boar Directly 5 on boar under TC
7 Straggler
8 Straggler
9 Straggler
10 House => Mill Deer
11 Straggler Send 3 Straggler Vills to Deer Mill
12 Straggler Lure 2nd Boar, Send 3 Sheep to 2nd Mill
13 Straggler
14 Straggler
15 Lumber Camp Send the 4 Straggler Vills to Lumber Camp
16 Straggler (?)
17 Straggler (?)
18 Straggler (?)
19 Straggler (?)
Loom Drop Food to get up
Send your 5 vills under TC to 2nd Lumber Camp

I can’t guarantee you will find your deer in time, it’s probably kinda luck if you find it with either your sheep or your scout.

I figured out you can make this a bit easier if you queue your vills from the first boar to the berries and then lure the 2nd boar. If something like pathing makes it weird you still have a bit of food income from the berries.

I think the best “defense” against that is just your scouting. If you see the opponent going for it you can switch to a counterdrush with more units. MAA or Scouts shouldn’t be a problem cause of your fast uptime.

Sure but even if you scout, with this build I don’t think u will have the resources to get your barracks up and have enough militia in time. And even then considering how far the deer spawn, the second mill would be quite vulnerable.
But this definitely is a great build for closed maps and maps like Ghost lake or Gold rush which is wallable.

you would probably need to make a “pre-lumbercamp” drush then yeah. Maybe I make an extra build for this cause it is probably kind of messi. But with the long walking time of the enemy drush it should be viable.

They potentially need to be pulled of to something else temporarily then yes. You need to track the enemy drush to see when it’s necessary.

Imo you should be ahead if you do a 4 militia drush to counter a 2-3 militia drush in the wider context of the game, so I think it is a viable strat even on the open maps if your scouting is on point.
Key is ofc to still get a competeitive uptime even if you had to move off your deer.

I tested it and it was a nightmare 11
I thik you just get loom, add some mini walls where it is possible and then go up maybe 1-2 vills later. But the earlier scouting is really neat against the drushes, so I don’t think it is a problem. Especially the modern 2 militia drushes shouldn’t be a problem to deal with the 4 vills on the deer.

BTW has anybody tested to make a surprise (premill) drush with gurjaras? Nobody would ever expect that. Yes you lose a lot of food income but it’s potentially worth it nevertheless cause nobody expects it.
Especially with the new bonus you could eat like 2-3 of your sheep even cause they would only provide minimal extra food income in the mill.

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I also made an Arena Buildorder. It’s 26 + 2 vills with 3 Mills. It’s also for immediately dropping a Castle when hitting CA. Whilst going up to Castle you can make some scouts and the eco upgrades.
The Build is also very tight, you can expect a few seconds of TC Idle time. But you should end up with a perfect timing on your Berries to transition into Farm Eco (be aware to safe some wood for that).

Villager Action further Actions
1-3 Houses Berries + make Mill
4 TC Berries
5 TC Berries
6 TC Berries Start Pushing 3 Deer, when you have 4 deer don’t touch the 2nd TC Berries with this build
7 Straggler
8 Straggler
9 Straggler
10 Straggler Make 2nd Mill with Berry Vill
11 Straggler Make House with straggler Vill
12 Straggler Send 3 Sheep in 2nd Mill
13 Straggler Make 3rd Mill with Berry Vill
14 Straggler
15 Wood Send 2 Sheep in 3nd Mill, 4 from stragglers to lumber camp
16 Straggler
17 Berries Make House with straggler Vill
18 Berries Make 2nd Lumber Camp with 5 straggler vills
19 Berries
20 House => Berries
21 TC Food
22 TC Food
23 TC Food
24 Gold
25 Gold
26 Stone Start Making 4 Farms under TC, Queue 3 from your TC to Stone, Queue last TC vill to berries
Click Up to Feudal Make a Barracks and a House
27 Stone Make Market + Stable
28 Stone

I didn’t expected this build to be that tight, but it is probably just because you can’t eat your sheep. I still think it’s kinda strong arena Buildorder even if it’s kinda “slow”. If you don’t want to Castle drop you potentially just make 1 more lumber camp instead and you should be able to drop TCs immediately.

Edit: It’s for the new PUP Gurjaras, again. The current active patch doesn’t gives any benefit for having multiple mills.

Gurjaras late game is sick. Idk if it can compete with something like Turks or Bohemians, but mass Chakrams and Shrivamsha are the way to go. Yes those units probably aren’t as strong as a Turk Heavy CA individually, but overall Turks spam from 120-130 pop while Gurjaras can go 115 pop, even 100 in principle if you aren’t scared of raids/having to replenish all at once.

Dealing with a civ that can throw 100 army your way and conveniently also mix in Siege Elephants (especially good vs Archer civ)/Bombard Cannon can be very nasty. I’ve seen Gurjaras beat other sick late game civs like fully boomed and fully teched Mayans.

Note I’m thinking mostly closed maps here Arena-style because if it’s Arabia, IF you enter Imperial age on even terms (big if vs Gurjaras), Gurjaras have better resource/map control and raiding potential with cheap Hussar, potential Camel switch, and Shrivamshas. They are even not horrible in treb wars due to Bombard Cannons.