Professional Handlers reduces all ele pop to 5 lets goooo
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Did you even read the original post? He specifically said for supremacy only. Why do you bring up treaty?
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My point stands, please explain me this
Karni Mata is built such that it covers 2 mines, 1 1/2 hunts and half a dozen trees.
15% is equivalent to getting all tier 1 market upgrades with the wonder alone.
Hence the suggestion in the OP.
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It depends on the map but in essence I almost always manage to bring 2 or 3 hunts under the effect of karni mata (initial hunt excluded) and 2 or 3 mines (it is unlikely that I succeed with the 3 but it depends precisely on the map) thanks also to the buff of the radius on some maps I can also bring the 4th hunts under the effect of the karni mata, I never place it in front of the base but always behind or next to the city center in order to predict my late game economy and the resources I can exploit near the karni mata, trees included.
Karni Mata nerf is justified.
In addition to a +5w house cost.
Because even an Agra start is extremely strong and just as good aging to age 2.
I can’t tell you how many games I’ve played where I’ve severely outplayed the other and they keep coming out on top with tons more res and stronger units and a bigger mass.
I’m top 200, versing people in top 500 - and they’re winning me every time with india, and losing whenever they pick another civ.
It’s hilariously OP, S+ Tier no effort civ. Not butthurt here, these are just the facts. There’s a reason nobody is playing Ports anymore and the ladder is filled with India, British and Sweden in the top 200.
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I understand what you’re saying, but no other pro-level player considers India to be OP outside of the changes I’ve suggested above. They are strong in the right hands but are still beaten by equally skilled Haud, China, Germany, Otto, and Spain(60/40) players.
A +5wood on houses is huge for India, as they’re already struggling to get a full batch of sepoys out with tier 1 market ups + house.
Maybe post your recs on Yukietty’s discord/ESOC and the pros can help you out better?
Ports have always been that way, either you only see Ports being played whenever they’ve got a broken age 1 card throughout DE (as was the case at the start of DE with %food gather rate that led to 12/10 ffs every game regardless of what the opponent was doing or the strong atp era and the most recent pre-nerf feitoras card). Else they’re rarely ever played. Ports are a map-dependent civ where they are S+ on water maps, S on atp maps and average on most other maps. You can jot that down to poor civ design which makes it harder to get balance right without being broken on water.
Not even going to try to defend Sweden, and Brits have been sleeper OP but been under the radar of more OP civs throughout DE. India, Brits, and French have always been good quick search civs because of good all-round capabilities, nothing more.
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The other problem is that I’m using Malta, which clearly needs some buffs. I don’t need help from the pros, trust me I see the potential other civs have and then I see what India is capable of pulling off very, very clearly.
They’re broken.
Then, maybe give it a tech, but it should be or very cheap or stronger effect cause an age IV tech for just 5% seems ridicoulous.
Other option would be to remove that 5% only for natural resources while keep it on paddies and crates as currently.
Other option would that it autoupgrades without any tech, maybe the most reasonable way, to keep the way it is right now
Just to reiterate I’m only propositioning them to reduce karni bonus by 3% to 12% bonus since before this the wonder was rarely ever used. 12% should make Karni a viable alternative to Agra Fort.
Yeah, either of the two solutions should be fine.
Why do India need wood shipment and rockets at the same time ? isnt the objective of wood in late game to make siege elephants (I rarely train mahouts and rajputs late game).
Having to easy and sustainable counter to mass light infantry is for me the main weakness of India. The rockets card should be a band aid, not a perfect solution. If we get to a state where India needs both overtuned rockets and wood shipements, then I think it is time to make other balance change for the civ.
In supremacy tournaments over the past years, I never felt that India had a low pick rate. It seems that in the current German league India has one of the highest pick rates.
For reasons why India would not be as popular on the ladder, if I had to guess (I personnaly play a lot of India, it may be recently my 3rd most played civ):
- They are not european hence do not have the classical “european artillery”, which most players love. Even though many players complain about siege elephant being OP, they know deep down that its not as the lamer rather stick with other civs
- There are not a “laming civ” like japan/sweden/old-incas
- contrary to China, they didnt get a significant buff (tea export) to raise popularity and awaken polatriotism (China still seems to be by far the most played civ in chinese tournaments)
- Their cavalry units are akward to use compared to the standard hussars/dragoons (either very expensive and pop inefficient elephants or very fragile and not upgradable).
- India might be “sleeper OP” but due to some akward units and cost they need to be “clearly OP” to be played a lot, just like other civs with akward units (especially the 4 warchief civs). There are other civs difficult to play, but most of them either are not played very often or have a “laming” feature. Or maybe I do not know which ones you are talking about.
By the way, I think before the DE the Karni bonus was 10% of the actual gather rate, instead of 15% on the base gather rate. Did we get a reason for the change ? The old bonus seems more satisfying for both supremacy and treaty. The only “problem” of the old bonus was that it was not good to advance to age 2, but I personaly wouldnt mind.
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To use battlefield construction, india needs a lot of buildings and training mahouts are faster than waiting for rockets if you can reach melee fight. On treaty is better to have vills on paddies than cutting wood while wood crates are gathered at 9.20w/s currently (8.80 before) if next to Karni mata.
As europeans get wood and artillery at the same time indians need it too
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You can add here the wood costing vilies, which are weird for the standard ladder lamer.
But india is “sleeper OP”. They have always been so. And they have some surprinsgly straigthforward and effective build orders to follow which allows them to get ridiculous amounts of units in timing pushes.
IMO the only reason india doesn’t dominate the ladder is because of its weird economy.
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Well 
. . .
so Obviously . . .
India is a civ which is critically Shipment dependent.
Vills cost wood.
(In Treaty) Battlefield Construction Costs wood
(In Ranked Long/Team games with awkward Maps) Mohouts/Vills/Buildings Needs LOADS of WOOD!
Mahout is a staple unit, mentioned is the civ description as the strongest unit. And they have been made “Usable” few patches ago. Thanks to their footprint size reduction.
And if anyone want to realize how much wood India needs, just try once, a Clear/No res/no tree/ 60 min. treaty. , Oh ull beg to have a British ally who can convert gold to wood.
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You’ve answered your own question XD
Back when Karni was at 10%, it was never really worth it to go Karni except for 1 niche build where you go zamburkas to defend against cav raids vs ger/Lakota. This played against India’s strength of inflicting damage early on and letting their eco catch up to their opponent later on. Most other civs just had better tempo if India wasn’t aggressive and lets them boom/semi, leading to a lose-lose situation.
Over Brits? Sweden? China over the patches? I could go on and on. Not true, India have been a strong civ, as many others. It’s only now that since the balance for the actual OP civs are being toned down, that one would turn their attention to India.
Just with the changes I’ve listed above, India should be back to being a good civ, balanced as before these changes.
india is essentially a better brit: better boom, better muskets, better cavarly, better skirmishers. The only thing going well for brits are cannons.
India being OP doesn’t prevent others from being OP.
What, they have the worst cavs (camels) in the game. Their only saving grace is their mahouts which can’t be massed as easy, not pop efficient, and have the worst pathing in the game. They’re dead before they ever make any impact unless you pop them on the enemy. I’d rather face a horde of Mahouts than 4 Sphahis or Mamelukes or the like.
And that’s huge.
True, just that they weren’t really (except after the recent update). The true OP civ Brits continue to go under the radar is baffling to me lol.
Longbows >> Gurkhas, all day, anyday. Not even close.
So basically, in treary Indians only became very wood dependent recently when the Mahout became usable ? Whereas before people “only” needed wood for the siege elephants (+ villagers and buildings) ?
But then what about this comment ?
Overall you are correct that I am generally avoiding Mahout due to the high wood cost. I am nowhere near being the best Indian player out there, but I will still stick with my sepoys/ghurkas/howdahs/jets/siege elephants/rockets, at least until India either get a better (ex age 4) wood tickle or a card decreasing the wood cost (either like aztecs replacing wood cost with gold cost, or something like changing tame elephants from 10% cost to 30% wood cost).
I see, so it is to get a second age 2 option. Too bad, I would have rather got the tower of victory as an alternative age 2 option, because when I play India I rarely want to boom starting from age 2, but from age 3 …
Nowadays I always go Agrar->Karni->Tower. I think I wilI try out other combinations though.
It is annoying indeed that civs like British and Japan are by design weaker at pro level than at other ELOs (as they need to get properly punished in a non trivial way), which often make them overtuned as normal ELO in order to be balanced at pro level.
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Nope, they are since they have Battlefield construction, since 2009 TAD.
India works by spamming buildings (barracks) to train sepoys and repeat. Mahouts are very niche but if you need a continous mass of them yes, you will run out of wood.
Mahouts arent that better than before, just Indoa doesnt have other option. Rockets help a bit, ### they have to come. Preferebly to a castle in the forward base (that people tend to destroy) that you will have to rebuild again and again
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