I agree that they are going to feel pretty much unplayable in a 1v1 and need buffs, I just think it’s because their bonuses are geared towards a skill level that hasn’t been reached yet rather than any inherent flaws with the civ. Sorry it’s a bit pedantic.
China needs to be buffed so that it is worth the time investment required to learn them.
Everything I was talking about was 1v1 related.
They are quite good in teamgames, if you have teammates to compensate your weakphase.
Firelancers are great, insta chemistry is cool, their bombards are insane, granaries are really neat and the tax collection is a decent mechanic if you have your macro going.
I’ve been playing China almost exclusively and have to agree with you here. I think early xbow, or make Zhuge Nu a proper xbow unit that can be unlocked in Feudal will help.
Nest of bees needs buff. Several of which shot together can’t even kill long bow.
I love people saying chin is so lame rn… 
i love how easy they are hardly any micro, best defensive structures, and i think the most unique units in a civ? Might be wrong about the last one… but they arent at the bottom on that one. So yes please 
keep saying chinese needs to be stronger.
I dont mean nerf this or buff that kinda points… those people who just wail out 5 paragraphs on the same arguements for the last 2 weeks …. “Zhuhg nu are their only uniqe”… “chinese cant do anything before imp”…
Nest of bees was originally a great fun in the game, but now it has been excessively weakened, erasing the most important victory point of the Chinese. Does Microsoft want to turn the Chinese into the most difficult civ to play? How to please players who like to play Chinese? If Microsoft wants to make some money, try to please the Chinese and increase sales, it’s better to strengthen the Nest of bees, because it’s fun in the test…
China doesn’t have potential to be top tier civ at all . It has good late game , but it can’t reach to late game . Other civs are SO MUCH better .
This is not aoe3 de , this game has thousands of players playing all the time , meta don’t take much to discover when u have this many people playing . If ever delhi or china become good civ , it will be becoz , either they got buffed , or most other civs god nerfed .
The biggest problem with Nest of Bee is, while theoretically they have higher damage, 8x8 as opposed to Mangonel’s 3x12, it’s tricky to actually achieve it. Many times the animation of firing smoke appears but it doesn’t actually shoot out the arrows, probably due to targeting. I don’t see Mangonel having this issue.
Besides, nerfing from 24x8 all the way to 8x8 is just bad practice for balancing. It’s just purly cutting down stats without giving anything in return to maintain its original role. I mean when AoE III first came out, the Chinese Hand Mortar was also deemed overpowered, but what the dev did was decrease its damage from 20 to 5 but increase its modifier against artillery from x4 to x16, so that it can still perform its original role. But Nest of Bee fails at its supposed job.
Increasing bees demage might fix some of the Chinese mid game problem
Slight buff to Nest of Bees - 16x8 maybe? making Zhuge Nus proper Xbows with armor pen.
I dont know, i played some China, and i think the way in early is “Quantity over Quality” approach on early defending. As soon as push is scouted in any way, 2 barracks, 2 officials, and pump out spearman like a madman, eventually even cutting vills for it, you will most likely go more TCs if you survive + the Song bonus should help in catching up in vills.
Dunno though.
I don’t agree with quantity over qwality , becoz china don’t have eco to produce quantity early game
The only advantage I immediately noticed was how often the nest of bees actually landed their shots compared to a mangonel often missing because you can manually dodge those boulders.
Nest of bees spam was the issue and it is still a problem.
No minimum range and no teamdamahe with more hp than a knight and basically not receiving any ranged damage, paired with bombard and a few villagers to quickwall/repair is one if not the best lategame comp you can have.
Depends what you mean with midgame.
I’d say their Feudal age has absolutely nothing to offer to play with.
No longbowmen, no early maa, no knights, no special tech or free upgrades makes it really hard to play against all ins or just agressive openers into ram push overall.
Except that’s not the approach.
They have an absolute basic economy paired with a basic military layout.
Yes they can speed up production speed with the impo, but economy is the deciding factor of how much you can do/how hard you can commit, especially in the first 6-15 minutes.
They don’t have anything that is particularly cheaper to give them momentum and make them therefore have more units.
Mongols archer/spear rampush fit this “quantity over quality” approach way more.
Nest of bees have the same targetting so have the same “issue” of beeing dodgeable.
They just lock down a certain area for an amount of time, making it easier to run out of the main damage but also making it easier to walk into a damagearea sometimes.
Nest of Bees are trash units, worse than Mangonels in every possible way. They display 8x8 damage but in practice they deal less damage than a Mangonel 12x3. And Bee damage does not increase with Chemistry in Age 4 despite being a gunpowder unit and in the upgrade description offering a 20% increase to damge, which is I would assume is simply a bug.
The Unit is slow, has a min range, damage was nerfed into oblivion, and has had the # of rockets reduced to half if not a 3rd of what it was in alpha/beta. I’d much prefer to have the Mangonel as china as this “alternative” unit simply doesn’t make up the difference and simply doesn’t preform the role of counter blob which other civs have early access to relative to the NOBs.
Should be buffed.
Rushing with that 3x production rate just delays your only goal, which is to reach Imperial in order to unlock gunpowder siege techs. This is also why Yuan Dynasty is not worth it. You want to reach Imperial, and paying an additional 1200f 600g for a small unit speed boost and a harras unit is not what you really want to be doing. Problem is on the road to Imperial you don’t have much going for you compared to other civs.
The imperial official also speeds up the research on production buildings, which is huge, techs seem to only take 25 seconds to research.
Overall I think the tax collection is just a tool to get you started. 150 food for such a flexible boost to your tech/military/eco is absolutely worthwhile.
The tax collection however is nothing more than a little gimmick to help your gold get up to speed in the beginning of the game, imho.
I’m not sure its the greatest tactic in the world - but I’ve found proxy Barbican of the Sun into either archery range - or barracks/archery range if they are a cav civ, IO on archery range, churn out archers, go shoot villagers ASAP has worked well. (Blacksmith->Siege tactics->rams to follow).
Whether its a better rush than other factions can be debated I guess - but the IO can make swapping between spears/archers/horsemen very flexible as needed, and if you can stop your opponent getting multiple barracks etc up (kill them with rams etc) they can struggle to keep up.
I think the issue is that its hard to pivot out of it. And if you don’t put on this early pressure you feel like a sitting duck.
Chinese need Buff.
Nest of bees need Buff.