# New Civ concept: the Venetians **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [December 20, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874 "2020-12-20T20:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/21 "2020-12-21T11:02:00Z")
> [@Soldeo](#): > > I never thought I would learn so much history from civ concepts here in AoE 2 DE forums. Those stradiot UU are very fabulous. I think this is a better choice than Sicilians though. Well, there is room for all, for the sicilians, for the venetians and for the “Italians”, since they all represent different states at the time. ---
**Author:** ![GiantLancelot99](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/giantlancelot99/32/30274_2.png) [@GiantLancelot99](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/GiantLancelot99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/22 "2020-12-21T20:32:45Z")
I really like the overall concept of this civ. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > Docks works 50% faster and are built in 50% less the time\*\* Nice, makes sense! > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Starts with +150g (so 250g in total)** It may be a bit to strong, but I am no expert. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Archery range units move 10/15/20% faster in feudal/castle/imp** I like the idea of having fast moving archers to make up for the lack of good cavalry. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **University tech cost 50% less** Makes sense. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Docks provides 5 pop** Makes sense. I like it very much. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **UU - Stradiot** I really like the concept of having a mercenary (gold only) cavalry unit which is unaffected by upgrades, but performs well out of the box. It gives us the possibility to have good cavalry unit, despite not having good cavalry upgrades. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Naval UU - Galeass** Your description of the Galeass makes sense. High armor, spread attack pattern, slow, short range. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Castle UT - “Fourth crusade”** The name and the effect of the UT makes sense historically. But it seems a bit odd if you’re teamed up with Aztecs, which give you additional +33% relic gold. An alternative would be to get a one-time payment of 500 gold (or so) for each relic you own. Capped at 5 relics. > [@DoctBaghi](#): > > **Imp UT - “Fante de Mar”** > Archer line get +1 atk This seems a bit boring, this UT should be more impressive. I give it a try: enables you to train Militia line and Archer line units from the Galeass. Created units are ejected directly to the shore (units cannot be garrisoned in the ship). If the shore is to far away or blocked by buildings or units, unit production is paused. Also gives +25% attack speed to the Militia line units. @DoctBaghi : You still mention **free ballistics** in two places in your first post. ---
**Author:** ![IICumanicus](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/iicumanicus/32/42804_2.png) [@IICumanicus](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/IICumanicus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/23 "2020-12-21T20:37:30Z")
> [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > enables you to train Militia line and Archer line units from the Galeass. Age of Empires 3? ☹ > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > Also gives +25% attack speed to the Militia line units. Look for Japanese bonuses. (Infantry attack %33 faster starting in Feudal Age. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/24 "2020-12-21T22:07:46Z")
> [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > I really like the overall concept of this civ. Thanks > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > An alternative would be to get a one-time payment of 500 gold (or so) for each relic you own. Capped at 5 relics. It may work, if it cost only wood and food for each relic you would basically get 5 free stradiots. But I wanted to give them something a bit more consistent and that may help them in the long run, since they have no eco bonus. But your idea may still work, but I wouldn’t put a cap on it, since it’s a one time use, not like the lithuanians bonus. > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > This seems a bit boring, this UT should be more impressive. > I give it a try: enables you to train Militia line and Archer line units from the Galeass. Created units are ejected directly to the shore (units cannot be garrisoned in the ship). Yeah but I wanted to give them a bonus that they may use on land maps too, to avoid having a _“new Italians”_, a civ that is super strong on water and weak on land. +1 atk for archers is one of the few bonuses that isn’t already assigned to a civ, and in the late game when you have a big ball of archers may be really strong. > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > Also gives +25% attack speed to the Militia line units. Meh, japs get 33% for free, 25% after a UT is weak… > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > @DoctBaghi : You still mention **free ballistics** in two places in your first post. One is an error, I’ll correct it. The other is to notify the changes. > [@GiantLancelot99](#): > > It may be a bit to strong, but I am no expert. Well, aztecs have +50, but they have a strong eco bonus too. Lithuanians have 150 more food, which is arguably more strong. I think that +150g is balanced, considering that there is no eco bonus after that. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/25 "2020-12-22T09:54:43Z")
After @GiantLancelot99 suggestion, I changed the castle age UT fourth crusade to give 500g for each relic in your possession. I also added more on the history section. ---
**Author:** ![StereoQuasar163](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/stereoquasar163/32/75664_2.png) [@StereoQuasar163](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/StereoQuasar163)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/26 "2020-12-22T10:06:26Z")
fits better in AOE 3 ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:20am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/27 "2020-12-22T10:20:41Z")
For the historic period? Nah venetians fits better in aoe2 timeframe (where Lepanto is also a campaign), though I can see the argument of seeing them in aoe3 too, but they were less relevant in that period. If it’s for some aoe3 aspect of the civ instead (the relic UT or the only gold UU) I think that those have just a bit of aoe3 flavor. I tried to design the civ as much as I could in the aoe2 mindset. And I think that I was successful for the most, since there really are few out of the box bonuses, but it still seem an original civ, with very few overlap with other civs. ---
**Author:** ![Bestiapower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/bestiapower/32/56028_2.png) [@Bestiapower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Bestiapower)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/28 "2020-12-22T23:36:22Z")
Hi, your proposal is interesting but I think that, before including the Venetians, they should include: the Papal States, the Khazars, the Avars, the Normans, the Pechenegs and the Hussites. But I also believe that would be too many civs. happy hollydays 🎅 🤶 ---
**Author:** ![Lonezwiebel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/lonezwiebel/32/29843_2.png) [@Lonezwiebel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Lonezwiebel)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/29 "2020-12-23T00:03:10Z")
I don’t think this civ would be that OP because the dont have real strong Eco bonus. But fast moving Archer with extra attack in late game would be too strong. For a good reason elite plumes only have 5 base attack. Plumes Arbalest without extra attack would already be pretty strong. Cumans and Celts only get 5% extra speed for their unit, for a good reason. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/30 "2020-12-23T09:16:19Z")
> [@Bestiapower](#): > > the Normans It actually seem that the sicilians will be the normans. > [@Bestiapower](#): > > the Papal States Nah, while the papal state was important, it actually constantly rely on a foreign power military and economically, like the franks, the HRE, spain… it wasn’t really indipendent… I agree with some of the other cultures that you named thought. > [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > But fast moving Archer with extra attack in late game would be too strong. For a good reason elite plumes only have 5 base attack. Plumes though have a bonus damage vs infantry, so it actually becomes 11 (with blacksmith upgrades) damage vs infantry (13 vs pikes). Also, plumes would still be faster than the venetians arbs. (1.15 vs 1.2) and they would still have their high HP (25 more). Also, mayans at least have great EEW, venetians would have terribile cav, so they would actually be at a disadvantage on this. > [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > Cumans and Celts only get 5% extra speed for their unit, for a good reason. Cumans and celts thought get their 5% on top of an already higher base speed of the unit (considering that both infantry and cav get a upgrade for speed). An arbs have a base speed of 0.96, a champs with squires (the slower melee unit that we can consider) have 0.99, so with 5% more it becomes easily 1.03. Just for comparison, venetians arbs would be fast as much as celt halbs. However the precise numbers would be 1.06/1.104/1.152. For comparison, a rattan is 1.1 fast, a plumes is 1.2, a CA is 1.4. I don’t see the speed bonus as broken. As for the extra attack, we’ll that is locked after a UT in imp meaning 3 things: - you need to first reach imp - you need a castle - you have to pay for it Now we can easily balance it by giving it an high cost to the tech. Because while being cheaper and having 1 more range, venetians arbs wouldn’t still be on the level of HCA, since they would have less HP and speed. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/31 "2020-12-24T10:10:47Z")
I need your feedback and help guys. As you can see, in the siege tech tree I gave the venetians FU ram and onager lines, no scorps at all, and FU BBC. Now on BBC and scorps I won’t change my mind. The BBC is really needed to snipe enemy siege, since again their cav is trash, so you can’t rely on that. As for the scorps, I don’t want them to have to they are even more forced to rely on their archers, and it’s also to balance out the +1atk in imp. Also, being the only one that miss entirely the scorp line would make them unique. I don’t want either to have them lose SE, since with ballistics and chemistry are the only techs that are worth grabbing every game, and if they lose it, the cheaper university bonus would be heavily nerfed. **My problem is with the onager and ram.** I gave them both **siege ram** and **siege onager** because I wasn’t sure what of the 2 they should get. My idea is that they get the third upgrade of one, and just the second of the other. _ **So basically what should I give them between:** _ - **Siege ram** and **Onager** - **Capped ram** and **Siege onager** Which of the 2 combos suits them better. Which of the 2 work the best in combination with their bonuses and the rest of the tech tree? _Poll ([view on site](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/31))_ ---
**Author:** ![Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/sylux1000/32/48045_2.png) [@Sylux1000](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Sylux1000)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:24am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/32 "2020-12-24T10:24:00Z")
In a trash war, this civ has a meso tech tree, so it is reasonable to have SRs… SRs are also a better archer counter in 1v1, when gold is limited. And your UU is not that viable in 1v1 to counter archers. Conversely, in TGs you may use the UU, so limited need of SOs… ---
**Author:** ![YouSeaSwim](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/youseaswim/32/29229_2.png) [@YouSeaSwim](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/YouSeaSwim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/33 "2020-12-24T11:11:45Z")
We need “Venetian Heavy Infantry” from Medieval 2: TW !! Powerful Heavy Infantry units with Armor Piercing Damage, and (reasonably) high armor or HP. They should walk swaggering like Dismounted Knights. Their weapons are a grandiose War Hammer and a Shield. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/34 "2020-12-24T14:07:38Z")
> [@YouSeaSwim](#): > > Powerful Heavy Infantry units with Armor Piercing Damage, and (reasonably) high armor or HP. > They should walk swaggering like Dismounted Knights. Their weapons are a grandiose War Hammer and a Shield. Mmm it would be nice, but a cav and naval UU would fit them better in my opinion. I thought of giving them a UT called **“Schiavona”** for their militia line, but all infantry bonus are already taken (more atk, faster atk, HP, speed, armor…). ![spada-mercenari-schiavona](https://static.ageofempires.com/aoe-forums/original/3X/0/d/0d68322226e20c93ad247fc2bd4c9815d70a5092.jpeg) Schiavona sword The only thing that I was able to come up with was that _militia line ignore armor_, like the letis, but that would be OP as \*\*\*\*… As for the warhammer and shield, that would be the stradiot equipment (a spear too would be accurate, but maybe too much similar to the MH). ![51UWOWFp7L](https://static.ageofempires.com/aoe-forums/original/3X/3/3/331f3a2dbddafa1fba81a0bd877376b2ba26c663.jpeg) Maybe the _schiavona_ UT may give to the militia line a **charge effect** like the **coustillier** have, but for that we may need to first see how the meccanics works… ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/35 "2020-12-24T14:09:25Z")
> [@Sylux1000](#): > > In a trash war, this civ has a meso tech tree, so it is reasonable to have SRs… > > SRs are also a better archer counter in 1v1, when gold is limited. And your UU is not that viable in 1v1 to counter archers. > > Conversely, in TGs you may use the UU, so limited need of SOs… Your logic is solid… I wanted to avoid to make them too similar to the mayans (faster archers, gold intensive fast unit…) but there is no sense in giving them a unit that wouldn’t help them… ---
**Author:** ![Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/mahazona/32/213405_2.png) [@Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Mahazona)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/36 "2020-12-24T16:45:33Z")
If there are more italian factions they should all get the condotteri for history sake. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/37 "2020-12-24T17:20:16Z")
> [@Mahazona](#): > > If there are more italian factions they should all get the condotteri for history sake. Well, not necessarily. Venetians did use the _condos_ (north Italians mercenaries armies) but late and only to defend some of their latest north Italy territories. For most of the time, they used the _schiavoni_ (istrian and dalmatians infantry mercenaries) and the _stradiots_ (balcanic cavalry). Also, venetians would get condos every time they are allied with the Italians. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/38 "2020-12-24T20:49:27Z")
After some thought, sparked by @Mahazona, who argued that venetians should get condos too, I come to the conclusion that I may agree to that. I think that they could get them as a regional unit, not shared with allies, and they would for sure fit the tech tree of the venetians. Because even if then the Italians team bonus would be useless when allied with the venetians, so it’s other team bonus. For example, persians team bonus give knights +2 damage vs archers, which is useless for the 4 civs that don’t get knights. The same thing happens for the turks when allied with civs that don’t have gunpowder, or for the viets and turks, and so on… Also, italians condos with pavise will still be stronger than venetians generic condos, in any case, let me know you option if they should get them or not. _Poll ([view on site](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/38))_ ---
**Author:** ![StarPeach703575](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@StarPeach703575](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/StarPeach703575)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/39 "2020-12-25T01:00:59Z")
I don’t think that civ would be broken in land because it lacks good eco bonus and it have Malay, Korean tier cavarly outside of their UU. Still, +150g can be problematic that it can be exploitable as cheese strategy like mass MAA for high level player, and give some adjustment it would be fine. But dock work +50% faster is incredibly strong I feel. In water map, the early advantage snowball very easily and it would be more broken than current Italians. I think it should only applies to tech research in docks, and probably can include attack/range upgrade in blacksmith. ---
**Author:** ![DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/doctbaghi/32/177207_2.png) [@DoctBaghi](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/DoctBaghi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874/40 "2020-12-25T01:33:46Z")
> [@StarPeach703575](#): > > Still, +150g can be problematic that it can be exploitable as cheese strategy like mass MAA for high level player, and give some adjustment it would be fine. Well, if you grab loom (which you should always do) with that 200g you could theoretically train 20 militia. Theoretically because in reality you still have to pay the full food cost, and 1200f in dark age it’s definitely too much, even 600f (10 militias) or 300f (5 militias) it’s too much for a civ with no eco bonus. They way I see it, _you could use the extra gold_ for training 1 more (4 instead of 3) militias, but most likely _you’ll pick the M@A upgrade_ (if all 3 militias made it) _or simply use the gold left for archers or a FC_. The only civ who can go for more than 3 militia Drush are goths. Venetians wouldn’t be able to pull it off often, maybe some times, but I don’t think that it can be abused. Also, consider that after that gold is spent, you don’t have anything if not a bonus for archers, so you wouldn’t be able to go for mass M@A much more than the enemy can. The bonus was designed to help you on getting your _Drush into archers_ (or _galley/FG_ on water) up and running, for then using your fast rush to deal damage. So you take eco advantage by dealing damage, because otherwise you won’t have a better eco (except for the castle UT that again give you some gold). > [@StarPeach703575](#): > > But dock work +50% faster is incredibly strong I feel. In water map, the early advantage snowball very easily and it would be more broken than current Italians. I think it should only applies to tech research in docks, and probably can include attack/range upgrade in blacksmith. _For going into fish_ (assuming that you have the wood) yes is strong, since you’ll have food earlier. But for military, it’s not really like vikings. _You’ll still pay the full price_ for all and you won’t have as much resources as Italians, or even mongols/huns for example. So faster training time doesn’t necessarily mean more ships, it might only if you are really careful. Early on, you’ll be able to have a group of galleys up fast thank to your extra gold (250 is roughly 8 gallesy, but consider that you have loom and fletching) and some wood saved from some house and some dock (you need only 2 for each 3 standard dock although it’s not that wise to have few docks). In the end, you need to really _deal damage with that early aggression_, otherwise any other good water civs will soon have stronger and more long term bonuses. To fend off that initial aggression, the enemy can use fire ships, and _I purposely not given even demo raft to venetians_, to give the enemy a fighting chance. In castle age you don’t have any eco bonus (not on age ups, not cheaper ships, no free HC) or stronger ships (no more HP or faster atk). So if you didn’t take advantage by dealing damage, you’ll be behind either in eco or military. Yes, you’ll have a strong water UU, but it’ll difficult to win if the enemy will “out-eco” you, or if while transitioning to castle age you lost map control. > [@StarPeach703575](#): > > I think it should only applies to tech research in docks, and probably can include attack/range upgrade in blacksmith. Having them affecting only techs is too weak. Basically you’ll have no bonus until castle age, any other water (and some non water too) civ will have you destroyed by that time. If you include blacksmith upgrades, it would be a bit better, but still weak. But more importantly, you would heavily buff their archers on land, who already benefit from 2 bonuses and 1 UT. [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-civ-concept-the-venetians/111874.md?page=3)