New Civilization Concept: The Venetian

well, personally i think that vill fights were just beautiful to watch and you were very proud if you won them :joy:. but deep down i didn’t even tought about it while choosing this bonus… the main idea was a defensive bonus since the start of the game, while when you are going up… it is interesting and i like the istant loom when you’re going up, both because you are forced to going up without loom (so it will be very risky, and you need to learn how to go up quickly) and also because once you are up you will have stronger vills, someone could argue that the trush will always happens, but if you never face it, you will never learn how to defend from it.

personally i like the fact of an insta-loom-after-anxiety-for-stronger-vills, like the stats of loom plus a bit more during the age, like in feudal you gain on top of loom hp and armor…

HEAR ME OUT:
OR, since the civ lack some eco bonuses your “giving them stats per age” made me think of: you have loom and you need to research for it, but as a eco bonus in feudal all your resouces are gathered 5% faster exept for farms, in castle age vills have +10 hp (always useful and its not in feudal where vill fight and trush an happen), in imperial age they gain 1 meele armor (basically because it will help them with the hussars raid on land maps)

what do you think about this hybrid-kinda-economic-version to prevent vill fight and tower rush in feudal?

the point that i have here with this bonus however is to give them a vill that is slightly stronger than the other, but at the same time less stronger than a inca, spanish or bohemian vill

here this bonus for the military is to compensate the lack of strong eco bonuses, because your main think when you play as the venetian is “my opponent has some sort of eco bonus and i have to punish this, i need to make damage” (even if your villager stats to gather faster is not something where you can simply sit up and boom, you need to kill.

im concerned that if your vill gain the bonus of 5% faster gather for all the res exept for farmers, the discount on the archery range could be tweaked, instead of -50%–> -25% or 33%, and also the movement from 10%–>7% if is too broken for the dodge and micro. i personally do not wanna remove the discount because if you think at other archer civs we have ethiopians with thumbring + the ability to re-research it, and the +100, +100 while aging up, or the britons with faster sheperds on top of faster archery range production and then the range in castle age, mayas have the res that last 15% longer and discounted archers and this alone is stronger than the discount that i have proposed…
The point here is that all the top/little under top archer civs have this kind of synergy with a strong eco and a strong military bonus, and since the civ lack on eco i decided to give them both the faster movement and the discount on the archery range…

But if the previous bonus of loom will change progressivly while aging up (giving them +5% fast gathering starting in feudal etc… Obiuvsly the discount will be tweaked (note that is mainly for thumb ring because the other upgrade are preatty cheap and university, chemistry and balistics are all full price. The point is here to have fast archers cause you need to make damage as soon as possible and to do this you need to reach the opponent, and then to keep the pressure you have the discount archery range that help you in the next age. and remember that in both cases, for loom stronger (original idea), or vills (that gather faster and in castle-imp have HP and armor), 1 option: you will lack an eco bonuses or 2 option: you will have loom to research like everyone (so you are not aging up faster or with one more vill), you have some sort of eco bonus and you have the movement and the discount at teh arcehry range reduced

for this point the +1 range only in imperial is because the naval battle are a bit rusty (not easy to move the unit in the right spot, escape, attack… not like having archers and cavs that are dancing on the land) so i think the +1 only in imp is good, and i think careening and dry dock are more than fine even if the civ will have a +5% gathering on res

Remember also that on islands or similar maps where have a lot of water, the map is big in team game and usually the games do not end in 20-30 minutes if you do not transport, so the opponent will have time to make a back dock and remass.

Here i wanna give the venetians the powerspike as soon as you’re reaching the next age, yes you can stay at home and defend yourself, but after some game with this civs you will learn how important is to use your advantage when you have them, (like if someone is the first reaching imp and in a castle fight do not make trebs…)
I wanna push the players cause yes it could be a defensive civs (you can escape form skirms, you have he defence for the navy… But i wanna also put them in the situation with this civs to learn how to use the advantage when you have them (here with careening and dry dock, as soon as i go up i search the battle cause if both are up and research thewar galley upgrade i have careening by default, so i could win water now, not after 5 minutes. After 5 minutes i need to stay defensive cause the other payer could have some sort of bonus-on-top like more hp on the nave for example…

well yes, but actually no… i try to explain why i think its different, and i discovered this unintentionally:

a full up Bizantines castle have (with bonus, hoardings) 8131 HP, and 8 / 11 armor, cause the bizantines have no access to masonry and architecture cause of their strong HP bonus

a full up castle with masonry, architecture and hoardings like Vikings, spanish, italians… have 7028 HP and 8+2 / 11+2 armor

one day i was wondering if my elite chu ko nu could destroy a castle with a saracen ally, so i tested out in the editor with some castles with bonuses like celts, teurons, bizantines, spanish… and also with castle that lack some upgrades, like viets, cumans…

i just patrol them into the building in a scenario.
And after i make some test the results were unexpected, yes my post imp chu ko nu destroyed all the castles easly cause of teh saracen bonus, and the majority of them didn’t even die (every group with 60 or 50 chu ko nu, depends of the test) but the FU bizantine castle fell before than the FU spanish one (second like, not so much, sometimes even a couple of milliseconds). Even if i says to my chu ko nu to patron before into the spanish and right after into the bizantine.

i do not know how much this is impactful and how much this could be a real situation (cause very rarely you see chu ko nu go against casle :sweat_smile:)
i do not tested it agaist trebs, BBC, or meele units, and frankly the archers are teh last things that you want to use to hit a castle, even in post imp

But this made me think of how much the armor of masonry and architecture is important, as long as hoardings for castles as much as the bonus of bizantines for HP

i think also that in the game yes we have the bizantine bonus for HP, more HP than a standard FU castle (and is also for all the other buildings, but they lack the armor that masonry and architecture provide.

in the end yes they are the same meaning into the game (help the castle to stay up) but tehir bonuses will be different, cause one is more HP (like the bonus of viets for archers) and the other is armour for buildings (like the koreans)

here like i said the point is that if you have a knight with only the +1 attack on castle age the UU will ignore this upgrade, but if you have the +2, the damage negated will be all the +2
… yes you could simply add some armor to your unit, but it will lose his original idea ot the UU. Having 3 armor in castle age and the knight that i have against is only with the +1 of the attack… it will negate more than his original purpose.

if this type of unit is not possible to have i really like the concept of a infantry UU, with a bonus damage against cavs, but with a low base damage, and fast attack like samurai, at the same time with some pierce armor and a little bit faster than the other one
and if this thing is not possible to do for the developers.
The point here would be that is strong against cavs (huge bonus damage), and with some medium resistance against archers, but the best way to defeat them is the militia line (cause the base attack of this unit is very low, and it will have no bonus against infantry)

I think there is no other unit like this, i kinda like the fact that for counter this you need champions, like with the eagles, or also maybe a really big ball of arbs (it will be not like a eagle, ghulam or huskarl, but not weak like the normal champion)

In fact the champion will gain a bonus damage against this unit:
M@a: +2
Long Swords: +6
Two-hand. Chamion: +8

Stats:
cost 65 food 30 gold
Base Elite
HP: 60 70
MA: 3 4
PA: 2 3
ATK: 5 6
RoF: 1.55
Speed: 1.00 1.05
LoS: 3 5
training time: 10 seconds 9 seconds

elite upgrade: 100 food 550 gold, training time 40 seconds

Bonus Damage: + 20 + 30 against cavalry / +16 +26 against camels / +22 +32 against war elephants / +11 +11 against mameluke / +2 +4 aginst eagles / +1 against buildings

with this unit they will lose access to the halbs for balancing reason, but this will be also a good unit in post imp when the gold is low, cause if it will work like a champion and will force the enemy to tech into the champion himself.

the point here is to have a ship that absorb the damage, like when you make some rams and you put them between your archers and the enemy archers, this way the enemy ships are forced to hit the big boys in front, while your galleys are doing the dirty work at the back. here on water as the enemy you really want to hit the ships behind because they are doing more damage and they have less HP, so you will click the gallleys behind, but if you do it half of the damage will be instead dealt to the naval UU, the galeass.
like i said is like when you put a ram in front of your units to force the opponent to micro.

and i think this strategy is interesting and new on water. I saw spirit of teh law uses this “thing like ram” when the sicilians recived stronger transport ships, and i thought it could be something cool if you have also the hussite wagon unique mechanic (but i agree with you that this is useless with the hussite wagon :laughing: )

But I dont mind this.

here the porpuse was to give your barrack units a match with the other infantry at least in melee, cause your UU has the ability of ignore the attack of the blacksmith of the enemy. and giving this to all the infantry (so also to the UU) i thought it would be broken to have the full defence and the unique ability on the UU, but ive also compensate the barracks to be competitive in imp. And to have something thush like the halbs to put in front of the BBC and archers.

the reason of this tech? im a bit obsessive, and the fact that i miss the last armor, and the game give me this tech but at the same time it will not give me the last pierce armor… it drives me crazy (im a bit masochist, i know :joy:)

Personally i will leave this tech in castle like i said also cause of the possibility of have a castle age swordsman, or pikes with more armor in castle age, i think its very strong if you wanna push in some close maps like socotra, or if you wanna transport your infantry into the enemy islands and have some more protection in the castle age.

if the UU is replaced like in this post i think the UT should not influence the UU anyways.

i like the fact that you have a window of opportunity in late castle age before other civs like bulgarians, aztecs… research the imp techs…

you are right, was in my mind when i was eriting to have “ironclad-but-pierce”, and i did’t write cause i wanted to see if anyone reccomeded it.

im ok and i like the fact that you have the pierce armor BBC, also because you have the unique unit that in both the way (starting idea or the fast-halbs-replacement-gold-intensive) will be guarding the bombard against the meele units

for the cost i was looking to kataparuto and i wrote the number…
i think is more appropiated:

  • Imperial Age Unique Tech:
    Bombard Cannon and Cannon Galleon +4 pierce armor
    500 wood and 450 gold
    +50 seconds of time for research

well, yes, they are similar, bu i think on water the italian have a bigger powerspike with the cheaper techs, Venetians needs to take advantage in the exact moment when you are aging up cause of teh free techs. Italians can have easly shipwright and fast fire, and reach every corner of the map with the navy, Venetians on the other hands needs to stay more calm and safe hitting only at teh right time as soon as they are agin up, and do not waste their window. The unique units also needs to stay in front and not mixed like es: Vikings or portuguese, also some big group of fast fireship hitting your fleet in the wrong direction while you are sill massing can cost you the game, especially before imp.
On land yes, both are archer civs but in some sense they are more similar to bohemians with halbs/UU (depends of what the unique unit is, sonsequantally they lose the halbs) and houfnice/BBC, or ethiopians for the arcehrs+BBC
I think the strategies are a bit different, because with the italians you can go fast castle or even fast imperial, while here you need to push in feudal every time with the archers, you are dictating the phase of the game with your faster archers, a bit like the faster firing archers of the ethiopians. ex: on arena they are not the same, Venetians need time to have the BBC like the bohemians, but without eco bonuses (or with the 5% faster gathering it will be always not useful, maybe guilds, but it will kick only in the castle age, exept for teh strategy of sling in arena…). On open maps every time when the opponent reach castle age and you have to the research completes, and let’s say you have less archers or you have lost them you can go back and close yourself thanks to the free masonry, and you can play like bizantine with affordable elite skirms against archers and pikes that you can continue to use until you move/mix the unique unit thanks of the UT against cavs. Italians instead can not do this, they need to stay arcehrs and build them, transitioning/mixing only genoeses, their only switch is in imp with condos and BBC (yes tehy can use skirms or pikes, but have no short/long term bonuses on them)

yes they are both archers civs but i think its different the way of playing

I’ve responded to AllergicTable49 cause he also had this tower rush thing, let me know what do you think

i think a +1 also in castle age would be too OP cause this is water, is not land where 1 is more established ans 2 you have always elite skirm that is a strong counter to britons archers…

giving the fact that es: italians have only discounted bonuses, also their IMP UT… i think is not too repetitive cause u have just careening, dry dock, masonry and architecture… the rest ( “offensive” bonuses like the range on water, archers faster movement, guilds avaliable in castle age are not.

i could also say that this is something that no other civs have (ex: teh team bonuses: almost every team bonuses is a building that work faster or more line of sight for some units) i think the Venetian team bonus is original :slight_smile:

if u had all this pointed out yet… the fact is that not every civs have guilds, for balancing reason and i think you could not give guilds like this…
what do you think about:

  • coinage and banking are avaliable one age earlier, the techs of the market cost 50% less

they are not istant as soon as you reach the new age, but they have to be researched, the player can also research them one age earlier (coinage in feudal and banking in castle age) you need to spend some res for it, and i think this is a good bonus. And the techs still needs to be researcehd, so you do not have them instantly. then if you need to start teh trade you have caravan discounted

Also the save of res because in touneys you can not sling until imperial/castle age, or every player needs to be in imp or in casle age, so, like the burgundian that have the discount bonus if you do not pick the teck in the “correct age” you will still have a bonus

as a civ bonus i will stay with:

  • guilds avaliabe in castle age

Because not every civ can research guilds, and is for balance reason, i think they will be will be broken every ally has the techs

i choose this bonus because the infantry lack the final armor upgrade cause of the UU, and this is a sort of compensation, and it have also the unique thing that you can potentially have longswords FU in castle age with 1 (bas) +1 (first blacksmith armor) +1 (second blacksmith armor) +1(UT)= in castle age a infantry with 4 melee and 4 pierce armor

the fact is that you do not have the last infantry armor, so is like a compensation but without the last pierce armor. Like the IMP UT of lithuanians that gices the halbs +2 Pierce Armor, theu will always lack the last melee armor in the blacksmith, but is a compensation

i could not give them more hp or, faster movement, attack, pierce armor… cause other civs have the bonus yet
if i give them +30 hp it will be just stronger than a Viking base civ bonus… i do not think this is teh right direction

you are right, i’ve responded to Allergic Table about this and he had teh idea of change this into +4 pierce armor, it will be like ironclad but for pierce armor, see what i’ve written and tell me what do you think

the idea here is that the unique techk will provide the +1/+1 only to barrack units and not to all the infantry. in fact the blacksmith lach the final armor for the UU unique ability.

if this is not possible to make i have created another “fante de mar” always in the post where i respond to AllergicTable49, basically a stronger halbs, but it could be tweaked with that ability of stun the enemy

if the ability is to slow down the rate of fire of the enemy that hit (like halbs have RoF of 3.00, but when the unit hit the halb for the next attack the rate of fire will be 2.00, and since this UU attack faster the halbs will continue to attack at the rate of 2.00 instead of 3.00 (iven if the halbs is hitting a hussar or a building and this UU in hitting them… What do you think?

my option (just because i love hussars) are to leave cavalier of husbandry… what do you think?

The problem is that this kind of bonus always leads to gameplay that the fan base don’t like much, especially the competitive fan base.

I don’t think that it’s likely that they remove the Inca bonus for then launch a civ with something very much similar.

Now this is more complicated… having vills that work 5% faster needs a lot of math, to figure it out exactly how it impacts the gamd on various maps, so I’ll wait on judging that until I figure out the exact impact.

The +10 HP on castle and the +1MA on imp instead are quite meaningless… by that point, you need to prevent raids in other ways, otherwise a knight or a a group of xbows won’t have problems on picking up your vills anyway. At this point you can easily drop the tanky vill bonus, since it would also pale in comparison to Inca or spanish vills.

Yes and no… until castle age fire ships dominate the game, and the venetians doesn’t seem to have a good eco or discount to mass galleys like vikings.

+1 range means better micro, but not much more damage to fire ships.

Repetitive because 2 bonuses are free techs and 1 is discounted techs.

You have:

  • 2 free uni techs
  • 2 free dock techs
  • 4 discounted range techs

It’s a bit repetitive, like do you like Italians as they are now? That they are famous for being the discount-Civ? Personally I do not, having a civ that is famous for cavalry, archers, eco is one thing… having a civ that have all their bonuses based around the same mechanic is a bit boring, but that’s just my opinion.

Your water balance isn’t OP as it is now, but a bit flavorless…

The problem is the earlier age in this case.

Guilds is a quite good but not a game-breaking tech, but the other 2 techs would throw team games into chaos, since at least the venetians could always sling you like crazy. And think of byzantine that sling gold to franks or huns from the beginning, it just complicate things.

Make it cheaper, but not earlier or free in my opinion… then do what you like with guilds, you can go crazy with that tech…

Mmm ok didn’t saw that they lack the final armor… not much of a fan of their barracks then, since their pike-line would suffer in trash wars.

Also, infantry in castle age is still useless, so considering that it requires a castle it would do little…

You can even make it +6 onestly for BBC. People shouldn’t counter BBC with archers anyway, but making them extra tanky helps.

Problem is that it won’t be something common either way, considering that you need a castle, I would grab it only if I had extra resources and it’s cheap.

Yeah, that could work too, there is quite a lot of room for new UU abilities.

Both stunning and slowing down the RoF can be good, probably the former is stronger…

Just a note, fante de mar would be basically translated into marines in english, so maybe schiavone it’s a little bit more iconic.

Mmm I don’t know…

Faster archers can be quite good, maybe too good if you leave them FU hussars, so bloodlines aren’t an option I’m afraid…

You can remove husbandry then, and leave the cavalier upgrade, so that heavy cav isn’t completely out of the picture, but without BL probably nobody would use them if not for defending a bit against small numbers of xbows.

Losing the access to halbs is never a good thing, since the UU cost gold, and that sooner or later runs out…

A suggestion, if you are looking for new bonuses for aoe2, you can look to the new aoe3 Italians, they have a lot of bonuses based around the renaissance, and for example I wouldn’t dislike some kind of build similar (but adapted of course to the new context) to the aoe3 lombards.

Haha I agree, as I said, I have nothing against that Incas syndrome! :smiley:

I’d make it 4 at least. 1 at this stage means nothing.

How about just a new format in AOE II, an upgrade to a tech, Loom 2.0. in Feudal Age
(and then Loom 3.0 if you want something in Castle Age)
Cost 100 gold and gives ____ stats.
Let me know what you think.

I get it, but it’s not like this civ is the only one without an eco bonus.

I totally agree with this comparison, because we expect this civ to be a top tier Archer civ. The closest I can think of, again is Britons, since +1 range and +10% movement speed just make the difference. They help them dealing with both Skirms and Mangos. Which are the main counters to bulk of archers, and more importantly the micro-ability of movement speed with the right hands is deadly!
Rattan Archer is a good example of how brutal it can get when a pro player has a fast moving Archer.

On the other hand, in a wholistic point of view, this civ can be easily be compared to Italians, just stronger, better Archers, and the ability to create Halbs.

I’d find a middle ground between Britons and Italians. You must make a sacrifice, the current situation of a FU fast moving “cheap” Arbalester on top a nice eco bonus (5% thing) on top of having BBC and Halbs is just too convinient to create any strategic space.

If you can make it viable despite being less convinient you’re a master designer!

Do you though?
Having fast moving Archers you can just mass them more conviniently avoiding Siege and Skirms, bulking up and waiting for Imperial while taking more of a calculated risks.
If they didnt have the Arbalester tech or Bracer I’d understand this (wonderful) nerative of fast moving Archers that have an opportunity time frame.

To be honest that’s fascinating :smiley:

But that’s the most niche justification, I dont think it can have this bonus implemented.

ROF 1.55
Bonus Damage +30 vs Cav

Hmm that’s too much for an unit that has 70 HP.
However, within a different price I can see this work. It has to cost more gold.
(I do love the fact they have 5/6 ATK)

Need to take another look at this one, I do tend to like it!

Haha that’s lovely tbh, I see this one working in a different situation, taking the last armor tech for cavalry for example yet giving them an UT the givesextra melee armor, making Cavalier strong vs melee units yet weak vs. Ranged.
I TOTALLY understand this powerspike you created in Castle Age though, it just doesnt fit Infantry units, imagine having an Arbs civ lacking Bracer yet having an UT in Castle Age that gives all Archery range units +2 damage. This one is actually playable.

I like this change btw.

This one is great, I’m actually curious to play this civ, having this unique BBC and those special Halb-like units. Would you give them Onagers? Regular Halbs? (I’d limit access to one of these generic techs/units)

Ethiopians have much weaker Archers than Venetians. And Bohemians cant be taken seriously since the civ is a little broken (due to their Houfnice). Bohemians are a great example of over-convinient win condition. Over the top Halbs+ over the top BBC. (and of course Heresy and an eco bonus)
Your civ is potentially supirior to Bohemians when it comes to design, you created powerspikes that has a strategic price. Unlike Bohemians design, which makes them absolutely auto-ban on closed maps.

As written before, I think it’s incorrect.
Ethiopians NEED to utilize their Archers early on, before the opponent techs into FU Skirms. Venetians dont.

I still think you need to find that sweet spot between Italians and Britons.

Bohemians aren’t broken anymore, I feel like you seem to always be a few patches behind. The devs nerfed them perfectly, and now they have a 50% winrate almost perfectly for closed maps. Besides, for Arena it was the cheap monasteries that was stronger than the Houfnice for most games.

4 Likes

Continuing the discussion from New Civilization Concept: The Venetian:

After some thinking and all your advices i came up with this little rework of the civ:

  • villager gather 5% faster (exept farms)

NOTE: the bonus could be bigger, somerhibg likes + 10% for miners, Hunters, sheperds, + 7.5% for lumberjacks, fishers and the berries.

Because they succesfully escaper from the huns and they had the force to build a city into a lagoon, and not a simple city, but one of the most rich cities during the medieval-reinassance era. This bonus is a substitudte of the loom one and all the things related, this to prevent vill rush or trush.
the impact on the economy will not be that huge, but better than the generic civ, i remember that spirit of the law pointed out that ex: a 20% faster stone miner for koreans is like having +4 stone every minute for every will (no upgrade). So at teh end it will not be overpowered in terms of eco advantage.

  • Archer line move 10% faster

normal archer speed is 0.96, im not good in math but at the end with this bonus your archers will have a speed of 1.056. this is your main and big bonus. but it could be tweaked a bit if its too broken in the balance patch.
i keep this bonus as a come of the military of Venetians, but ive scrapped the cheaper archery range both becouse they now have an eco bonus and also for the things that i will say later.

  • galley line have +1 range in castle age, and +1 range in imperial age. Careening and dry dock are free

afther sone thoughts i decided to move the +1 range in castle age, because as u can see now (and later) this civ is intended to have some sort of bonuses that will make them “over-the-top” in castle, where needs to use the advantages, and later, in imperial it will became equally-less strong, because of some missing parts of the techs.
This is the bonus of the civ on water, to try to win and mantain the wateruntil imp, where the UU can boost the full destruction of the enemy fleet (Stats of UU below)
The fact of the +1 in total is compensated for teh lack of the bracer, (at the end it will be only +1, the UT of castle age will brovide again a little boost in the caastle age for your galley)

  • Guilds free, avaliable in the castle age

this will not be as strong as the saracens market bonus (on top of the discounted building itself) i think of that mainly to reaching the imperial faster with some market abuse if the enemy reach the age before you (because you are using all your powerspike in castle age between navy and archers) and you wanna catch up. Also because after the castle age, when the things starts to move towards the imperial age what you really want is your strong FU BBC, and to have them you need the chemistry before, and also the siege engineers and the UT. It will be a lot of investiment (and time), and this will help you a bit.

  • Barracks units recive +1 Melee Armor / +1 Pierce Armor in Castle Age

The unique techs is moved as a civ bonus becouse: 1 infantry is less meta than archers, so they with an insta tech will be less broken. with this techs the venetians like the start will not have access to the last armor in imperial, and this is made for mainly 3 reasons:

1 give them a solid powerspike during castle age for potential super longswordsman before other better infantry civs can upgrade their longs into champion-with-UT, like aztecs, or bulgarians, or also to stronger champions like teutons or burmese.
2 lacking the final armor in imp they will be weaker overall agaist arrows and i think this is some sort of good trade (potential in castle age, weaker in imp, post-imp) in particular for pikes against skirms.
3: the possibility for pikes to defend more effectively agaist knights in casle age (you need only the pikeman upgrade and then with the free defense they will hold a bit nuch against the knights. but in contrast you will rely on your gold UU anti cavalry instead of the halbs in imp (or on your fast movement archers)

Team Bonus

  • Market techs are 50% cheaper, Trade Cart and Trade Cog have +50% HP

Since coinage and banking free and/or avaliabe one age earlier could potentially became a broken sling-tactic, i decided to substitute the “one age earlier” with more HP for your trade units ( Trade Cart have 70 HP, so 70+35=105 HP, Trade Cog have 80 HP, so 80+40=120 HP). i think its not broken, because the trade is without armor, but the trade route of the team will be more unluckly to lose the trade. I decided this is for giving the Venetians some trade-market bonus, and giving the fact that spanish generate more gold, bohemians have markets that work faster, italians have the UT for cheaper trade and portuguese the free cartography, i decided this, with the downside that is helpful ONLY in team game, not like the majority of the team bonuses like the woring faster buildings, LoS…

Castle Age UT:

  • archers, skirmishers and galley have +1 attack
    cost 375 food 350 gold
    research time: 30 seconds

NOTE: the bonus could Aldo be +2, but i think in the current metà Will be broken in casale Age, maybe a +2 only for skirms and gallery, and the +1 for the archers?

With this tech the archers will be much stronger in castle age, but with the downside of lacking bracer in Imperial, and consequentally lacking also the +1 range (compensated with the fast movement), the +1 LoS (compensated with the last movement). You also do not have the +1 attack and range on castles ans towers, and also the +1 attack on your TCs.
All this is for the archers mainly, to force the player to stay in castle age and force the opponent to stay in castle age by doing damage and do not move the game in imp.
you also have the skirms affected by this especially for an almost-even fair match in post imp (note that they now lack the +1 range of bracer, and they are not faster like your archers.
this is to compensate also your navy cause it will also lack bracer

Imperial UT

  • Bombard Cannon and Bombard Galleon have +4 Pierce Armor
    cost 550 wood and 450 gold
    research time: 50 seconds

this tech is to provide your BBCs some more defencse against archers, because usually players with a big ball of archers and some micro are able too easly to snipe and dodge the BBCs. With game numbers your BBCS will have instead of 5 PA–> 9 PA. a FU arbalester in Imp will have 6 base+3 (blacksmith techs)+1 (chemistry)= 10 attack. the damage that your BBCs will recive will be only 1 instead of 5. the max number you can have in one group is 60 units, so they will need at least 2 shots to kill one bombard (note that here i’m assuming that your bombard is not protected with army, is not protected with some castles and is on “no attack”… the enemy will lose some of their archers if teh bombards are protected. Also this techs will be helpful with some bad pathing of the units under the castle or some misclicks of movement of teh units under the castles. At last your BBCs will be not strong in terms of damage in comparicon with the bohemians or burgundians, or more cost effective like the italians, but more resistant to arrows.

Castle Unique Unit:

Because the first idea in my mind is difficult to implement into the game i decided to stay with a more decent an simple infantry units (the Fante de Mar, in english the traduction should be “Marines”).
A faster attacking infantry unique unit, with decent movement and heavy armored, with a huge bonus agaist cavs. the drawback is that it will have a very low base attack, their counter is intended to be the Militia line, so the standard infantry. This because the low base attack and no bonus against infantry (exept eagles).
NOTE: this unit is not influenced by the civ bonus of free armor cause its not from the barrack, and also it will not have the last armor cause missing from the blacksmith.

  • Cost: 65 food 30 gold
    Stats: Normal Elite
    HP 60 70
    ATK: 5 6
    MA: 3 4
    PA: 2 4
    RoF: 1.75
    Speed: 1.00 1.05
    LoS: 3 5

Training time 11 seconds 10 seconds

Elite Upgrade: 850 food 500 gold → training time 40 seconds

Bonus damage +16 +22 against cavarly / 16 +25 against war elephant / +12 +22 against camels / +11 +11 against mameluke / +6 +6 against eagles / +6 +8 against standard buildings

Note: RoF: like the srivamsha rider (knight and cavalier are 1.8). Is more than a halb cause it cost gold, they have no halbs and is produced from a castle.
Note: that a FU Imp standard cavalier or paladin have 2+3 of melee armor, so the damage without the bonus damage will be 1 (without upgrades, with a max of other +4, so total 5 with the blacksmith techs). Note that thi unit replace the halbs and it cost gold, the porpuse here is to have a halbs replacement, with the downside of the cost of gold, and that is trained from a castle (yes, it has a faster attack rate of a halb, and yes is faster).
Note: a FU Imp arbalest have 10 attack, this UU in Imp is with 4+2 (4 damage for every hit) arbalest could work also as a counter if massed, is for this reason that i gave them a speed of 1.05 with teh elite upgrade, cause it will be easy to reach the archers, not like the ghulam but is not 0.9 like the champion, and like teh eagles against teh champion the fast movement is for escape, but at the same time to be a bit faster to catch the enemy cavs.
Note: elite upgrade is lower than the generic UU because teh halberdier upgrade is significant lower and the unit itself is not gold intense (halb upgrade is 300 food and 600 gold), the training time is 10 seconds lower than the upgrade for the halb, cause its a UU
Note: i used as source for the bonus damage (castle age version) teh flemish militia (because the attack of teh flemish is much more of this unit ave added the rest as a bonus damage, it reflect teh purpose to be strong against cavs and weaker against the militia line) the elite stats are basically the stats of a pikeman, the bonus against eagle is high cause it’s a UU and their base attack is very low (eagles have more speed, so they can easly escape). the bonus against building is hight than the milita line or other UU always because the low base damage, and all the types of infantry have an high damage against buildings.

Here teh porpuse is to be abel with this unit to be an anty cavs unit and at teh same time have something that can protect your BBCs

Naval UU:
Galeass: the porpuse of this unit is to have something bigger and tanky to put in front of your ranged galley. But this unit is only avaliable in imp
Also it will work like a ram in front of your archers, but unlikely the ram this unit will have an attack. i like the fact also that this unit could be used in the Battel Of Lepanto, into the historical battles, (another reason to implement the venetian).

Cost: 150 wood 90 gold
Stats:
HP 275
ATK: 11 (melee) main, have other 4 projectiles that deal in a wide area like the organ gun, the sendondary projectiles deal 5 damage (they will ignore the armor)
MA: 4
PA: 8
Range: 6
RoF: 3.45
Speed: 1.3
LoS: 7
Accuracy: 85%
Projectile speed: 7.5

Training time 50 seconds

bonus damage: +10 against Unique units / +10 against ships, fishing ships, buildings (bonus damage is only applied on the main projectile)

Note: i used as a reference the turle ship and the thirisdai.
Note: i like the fact of a UU on water with the bonus against the other UU on water, like teh samurai.
Note: im not the gratest when it comes to water balaced, but i think it’s a pretty good work considering the fact that i can’t try the unit…
Note: i’ve added teh bonus damage agaist teh UU instead of teh ability to reduce (-50%) the damage if teh enemy select the navy behind the UU (like the ussite wagon). it can be also implemented in this civ or it could be some new ideas for some new naval unit
Note: this unit is intended without the need for upgrades from the blacksmith or university, but it will benefit from your free careening and dry dock (also there is the need t test teh cost before and after the shipwright)
Note: for the cost i used the thirisdai as a reference

Tech tree:

Note that there is no more the discount at teh arcehry range, ut you have faster archers

i removed the cavalier and the husbandry to force teh player to use the archers, but in post imp you can fully upgrade your hussars exept for husbandry (i like the fact of a faster archers and UU but with a slow movement cavs)

siege ram is here because of the famous venetian arsenal, their siege needs to be with something FU… and i think rams are more “inoffensive”, siege onagers i think it would be too broken. but it can be easly removed leaving only the capped rams.

remember that careening and dry dock are free

lacking some important stuff, but redemprion is here

you can see the lacking of the final armor (you have the civ bonus) and the bracer (you have the UT, but lacking range)

i removed the keep for the lack of bracer. Note that masonry and architecture are here but are not a civ bonus anymore, so you need to research them

a normal town center… with loom (you need to research it like all the other civs. (i do not know why thare are 2 images of teh tc in the photo ?? :joy: )

the fact that they have the bonus for faster gathering will be halpful in many ways but i left the full lumberjacks because they are a naval civ

remember that here the guilds is free and avaliable in the castle age, all the other techs are discounted for the team, the trade cog have more HP

(Images source (not edited): Technology tree | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom)

Alright so they’re an archer and naval bonus civ without Bracer? That’s a hard sell to make.

5% faster working villagers is nice but it’s really only like having 1 extra villager every 20. The archer speed is also nice although if too strong I’d probably make it 5/10/10

Look at the Castle Age unique tech in my last post, i have written everything…

I think Is a good balance, you have the possibility of the Attack from bracer in the Castle age, and the tradeoff Is that you have not the range (+1 from bracer) , but its should be more than compensated by your fast movement archers. Also, your Castle UT affect also the skirm and gallery line in Castle age, and It could be deadly both on land against archers and on water. Here on water you Will have Aldo the range as a civ bonus in imp, but as a tradeoff your skirm Will lack the range of bracer, but other than else they Will be FU

I’ll be onest, I’m not a fan of it, it’s messy to balance and a bit bland…

I would prefer something more historically aimed, like I don’t know, like:

  • fishing ships also bring back gold
    or

-trees nearby lumbercamps contains 50% more wood

I mean something like that, justified by their history, that they prospered with the salt and fish trade, or that they were careful on managing their wood reserves.

Just 5% faster gathering rate is a bit too generic, with a stretched historical justification.

That’s fine, maybe divide it like 5/10% in feudal/castle age.

That’s may be a bit of an overkill… but it’s also true that they don’t have a proper eco bonus…

You can even make it into feudal, and it would be basically half of the saracens bonus, so it would be fine.

Mmm ok, not much to say here.

That’s fine, useless in 1v1, but not all TB have to be good in 1v1 if the civ is balanced.

Mmm maybe remove the skirms from it, and it can be fine, it could be called bench crossbow.

Still don’t like this one… BBC and GC should stay in the back, not in front, and I would probably pick this tech only if I have spared resources.

So it’s basically a stronger halb that cost gold… mmm ok but I think that halbs will still be a better option overall…

You can unlock it even in castle age, just make it expensive so you can’t afford them easily.

Yeah that’s a problem… you lack both bracer and the last infantry armor, and with your terrible cav you don’t have an option for the late game. You don’t have either a super crazy start, so it’s a bit of a problem…

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Well at this point of the game the bonus are already taken. you want stronger and faster fishing ships? japanese, you want a discounted wood on units or buildings… koreans and malians… I mean sometimes we need to stretch a bit the fantasy and accept something that is not completley accurate. Here the base and linear concept of the bonus is:
they escaped and took refuge into a lagoon, since then their society prospered. Given that in practice this population and society had to rebuild from scratch, might a bonus of gathering resources faster be appropriate? I think so.
Also because if they had not engaged at that time they would have been either conquered, encompassed, subdued or eliminated by the first “conqueror” outside the peninsula. like the other northern states

The bonus of the free gold on fish in addition of food. Here the problem here is that is only on fish, you can even says that is applied both on ships and vills, but the main problem here is that this kind of bonus is good only on water maps. If you really want also a bit in black forest, but only if you have a pond… And this is not something good as a bonus overall.
I think it’s too situational and it will put the venetian in the exact spot of the italian in “forgotten empires”: only good on water (will be a ban for sure in touneys), useless in land maps (since the lack of real eco bonuses, cause tehre is no figh here)

you proposed also the near tree that last long. “Near” a lumbercamp usually you have 2 trees, so it will be only +100 wood in total, since a tree has 100 wood and the 50% is 50. Lets say that you can find a good spot of 4 trees, is always ony +200 wood, if you are lucky for the map and is a Acacia tree (i think is this the tree that have 200 wood) it will be only the double. There will be also problems of pathing of the vills–> for a good placement you need a straight line, because is the easiest to find, and you need 2 vills on one side and 2 on the other for a normal build opening on open maps if you are going archers. This is if you wanna maximize the efficiency. but if your trees last longer it vills only create problems of pathing (btw, mayans have the res that last 15% longer and this is come sort of magic number to have a bit of more wood in this case, but at the same time no pathing problems).
You have to consider that your main interest with this bonus will be to maximize it, so you will go everywhere and spend 100 of wood as much as possible to have as many lumbercamps near a group of trees. By doing this:
1: you will see decreased the overall value of your bonus,
2: you have to take away from the overall value the time your vill has been building (in that time he could have cut wood),
3 it is very micro-level intensive even just after the feudal age, when your focus will start to shift to your army, and not on placing lumbercamps.

Could you reduce the cost of lumbercamps? Nope, japanese have this bonus yet
could you make them cost 0 wood? Nope, will be abused like “free wall”
constructed instantly? again easy quick wall and will be abused

No drop off for the lumberjacks with a decreased rate of gathering? like khmer? I think this is kinda good, don’t get me wrong, but you are giving this bonus to a archer civ able to make deadly damage with the fast movement archers, and with a huge military bonus in castle age.
Also wood is not like farms, where you need to invest the cost of the farm itself, and it will start to kick only in mid-feudal but it will be instant.
Probably as a venetian player you will skip also the lumbercamp in dark age for a fast drush, faster than the lithuanians, and the potential of lame is huge with 2-3 militia + scout at minute 4… I do not wanna even think of that, it will be worse than the tower rush for the player base…

Yes a faster gathering is generic, its applied to all the res, and maybe is even too little, maybe a +5 at the start and a +10 in castle age. or +10 since the start, but basically with the +5% you will have a free vill every 20 vill (considering that most build are up at 19-20-21 vill, is like you have a “free” vill). With the +10% is 1 every every 10! (Yes is not a complete vill in one single res, but you will have overall a bit more res than the generic civ, since the start, without cost of an upgrade, and it will be influenced by the economic upgrades) And it will actually be better than the bengalis “+2 vills at the next age”, because during the transition of the age the vills are working, they will not start working when the age is reached.
It will make the difference of seconds for placing ex: the second archery range, or the blacksmith after, and having the ability to be faster for fletching or to have one more archhrs on the field it will be deadly. even if is only one at the beginning of feudal

i agre that the 5% is maybe too little, but better stay a bit underpowered than overpowered with a Civ Concept… The 5% could be easly +10% and for every res (exept the farms), and you can see in tourneys and on the pro-scene how slavs are strong when their farm bonus of +10% work rate on the farms (it was nerfed form 15%) starts to kick in → Also, i think it will fit perfect the game the +5% or +10% because we already have the +10 for slavs, this will be a mechanic easy to implement in the game (they only need to replicate this for all the res) and the venetians were obiviously not the most famous civ for farming…

i Know that is not “compleating historically accurate” but i think is impossible to do… do really franks gathered the berries faster? why chinese have no gunpowder? eagle shared for american civilizations!!! why is only the konnik who can figth dismounted? and every time!..
I mean we can go on forever, and personally i hate the people that complain for every little aspect of one game, (i’m not angry with you, i wanna clarify that. You are sharing your opinion, and using some of your time to speak about this, with me, and i think is wonderful. I need to thank you for that. then here i’m sharing my opinions, we are confronting eachother, and i think this is the best thing that people can do with a game to improve it). I mean, if you do not like the game just don’t play it, go and create your own game compleatly accurate and then we will se how many perople will play
Sorry maybe i went foo off-topic. My point in few words is that we can take some artistic freedom for this eco bonus, and i think the +5% or +10% on gathering the res is something helpful, unique, cool for the civilization and historical-and-artistic-accurate.

Yes could be easly done: in feudal teh speed of arcehrs will be arounr 1.00, and in castle age and Imp will be 1.05

remember that in the end, your galley will not have the range of bracer, only the +1 attack of the UT. so at teh end it will be only +1 range overall, but with the difference that you will have a huuge powerspike in castle age (this heavy power is castle with also teh careening is the reason why i moved completely the UU in imperial age like teh thirisdai for dravidians.

could be done as well, you are right,my only concern is that people will think “its basically saracens but weaker” and i do not want this, is also true that they can say this exact thing now, so i will change that in feudal :sweat_smile:

remember that your skirm lack bracer, so they will not be fully upgraded, and if this tech will not affect the skirms at least with +1 you will lack halbs, bracer on skirms and you have hussars without husbandry. so your trash option in post imp will be very very bad. this +1 attack is to gice them the same damage but always with the weakness of range to have at least a skirm yes not FU but at least equally strong in terms of damage output against archers and halbs in post imp.
Note ehat teh castle age UT coulb be “upgraded” with maybe +2 attack ( will be for skirms and galley only, archers will stay always with +1)<-- this is because if because we all know that the lack of range is really bad (briton arcehrs against arghers, mangonel, scorpion… they are deadly for this, and this is the reason why the lack of bracer for the galley and a +1 overall in terms of range. here on warer teh +2 if is changed will be to have more momentum and power output in late castle age when you research the tech)

For the name I hadn’t thought about it, and i like your name as a name of the castle UT : :smile:

you do not know how many BBCs i’ve lost against a ball of 20-30 archers in the games i’ve played in my life :joy: . and with the units that are defening… This tech is like the centre of the power in Imp for venetians. you will be almost immune to range damage (es CA) and with your heavy-fast-UU you will be able to defent them from the cavs. obiouvsly the trade off here is that 1: you need time, 2: your civ will lack halbs, you can defend with unupgraded pikemans in imp wou are right, but they will be more in danger against arrows. your UU + BBC or ball of arcehrs +BBCs will be really strong, and you need to fear only other BBCs (the damage is melee, so no armor) or mass siege onagers if you can not split archers (but here your BBCs or UUs can reach the onagers)

i also think that the tech for the Cannon Galleon is very situational, but if your fleet is fighting and you have 3-4 cannon galleon agaist a castle a bit far away i think if could be the difference between a castle up or down…

i know that this is a bit useless for cannon galleon but is something more on water, maybe is just too much cause they have the castle age tech that influence archsrs skirms and galleys. maybe the Imp tech could be only for BBCs and it could be less pricey, so it will be also les “spared resources” :joy: . But i want that tech to stay for teh pourpose that i explained to you here and in the last post :+1:
Maybe could it affect the water UU insteadof cannon galleon?

well i do not think so, the porpuse here is that you have more HP, more armor and a faster attack than a halb. so it will basically better, but more gold intensive, you also lack the halb, and the last final armor because this unit has a lot of armor itself. the barrak armor as a civ bonus is just a compensation and a huge momentum in castle like i said. you will be weaker in post imp, yes, but stroonger in end-castle age, its the design of the civ :+1: , and the market and free guilds will help you stay with some gold :grin:

well i think like i’ve tried to explain in this post that the eco bonus is kinda good, and it will help a bit your economy (yes you are right, is not like free hand cart and wellbarrow of vikings). the problem here is to have a strong castle age and a huge snowball in Imp with your BBCs on land and the same on water, but in imp with your UU.
remember that your opening with archers will be always strong with thefaster speed for take the correct engagement, and you could move around the enemy base in search of vills pretty easily. i think the potentian in feudal is something that people nedd to be aware of.
But yes in Post imp battle your trash units will be weaker, and here is when the market bonus start to shine: if you are 1v1 you had teh guild for help you gain more gold, and in team game other than this there is the option of easy techs into trade or sling. you lack only husbandry on hussars, “only” one range on skirms, and the lack of pierce armor and the halbs in the barracks. i think with your potential during the ages (particularry in castel age) you know that you do not need to extend the game in imp where you can not use your market. and i think this is a very interesting choice. if this is “too under powered” there is always the possibility to give them husbandry, at least for FU husars…

I read again this and i just want to underline that it was not direct against you this line, but against the “average-i-don’t-like-the-game” player. i think i could be misunderstood… Again, sorry but english is not my native language… :roll_eyes: :pensive: :sweat_smile:

There are tons of variations of bonuses that you can add, I suggested you 3 of them for examples. The one regarding fishing ships would have to be of course introduced alongside a more generic eco bonus.

I’m not against the 5% faster gathering rate, only that it’s bland, and doesn’t have any historical flavor, I don’t know if you understood what I mean…

It could be 4 tiles for example, or 6 or 10, I don’t know it was just something on the top of my head. Folwark works even if the farm is 1 tile away, so it means that it’s something “codable” that it’s enaugh to decide how much it’s balanced and how much it’s not. Also, you also have the hidden benefit of less walking time in general.

Another suggestion was that they get +100 gold when they age up, that they start with +100 gold, or that each tech researched gives back +10 gold… all things that came to mind in this moment…

You can also take inspiration from the aoe3 lombards (since the devs seems that they take things from aoe3 time to time) and giving the venetians an unique building that you invest a certain resource, and you get back another resource with a 1:1.5 ratio with a trickle over time. This is something that you don’t have in the game, and the venetians historically had a complex banking mechanism that worked around the state mint and could lean great sum of money.

Another idea might be:

  • Villagers that deposit resources to a building that is nearby (max 2 tiles) a monastery also generate 15% gold.

That take inspiration from the venetians schools of arts and labors, which were rich private institutions of categories and people that often used the nearby church as an “HQ”, this might be an interesting UT. Those of course are just random ideas, you don’t have to use them, but it’s just to bring some examples, that there are still a lot possibilities.

Yeah but for the most they at least try to give a specific historical flavor, especially on the newer civs (lol I don’t think that mamelukes really throws swords, and for sure they knew that :joy:).

Don’t worry, I’m not angry either, this is just a constructive criticism.

I may take the historical side a bit too seriously, but I actually live very close to Venice, and read a lot about its history in order to better create a civ.

Also, in general I suggest you to follow the trend that new civs are following, of making civs more unique and with bonuses more “outside the box”, this is what it’s most likely to be introduced in the future.

You could even consider 15% for imp, but that really depends on in general how the civ is strong in post imp.

Yeah, that’s a problem in my opinion, especially if you consider that the venetians strategy revolves around having tanky ships in front, but if your main ships lack range, that might be a problem.

Onestly, I would prefer that they lack the galleon upgrade than bracer.

That’s why I suggested that it should be the TB, so it’s a weaker version of the saracens, but shared with the team.

Have been recently to a medieval fair mearv Venice that had a bench crossbow competition, and believe me, those things were huge.

True, but it’s still something that shouldn’t happen, and +4 PA would just have them shoot a couple of more volleys, against a single BBC that’s not much…

In my opinion you should bump it up to +8, hell even +10, make sure that no archer can kill it, and maybe also give a +2 to HC.

Yeah, but the consensus is that halbs are still better. They are cheap, can be spammed infinitely since they don’t cost gold, they are a good meatshield and have a huge bonus against cav and elephants.

I would prefer the negative effects on RoF or the stun ability, or the negation of enemy attacks, they are more in line with the recent UU released.

Mmm, I believe that you’ll have a strong drush into archers, then in castle it really depends on who you are facing.

But if the game drags into imp, you won’t be in a great position.

Arbs and skirms without bracer, even if they have more attack will be out ranged by skirms and will be able to land less shots on cav, your infantry will be able to counter archers only until you have gold, and will be more susceptible to archers, not not even your cav will be FU.

Personally, I would prefer that you remove the arb upgrade instead of bracer (that also nerf your castles too) and that your infantry is FU, or at least have the halb upgrade.

By the way, I also made a civ design about the venetians for aoe4, maybe you don’t like the game, but you can check it out, maybe it’ll help you for this one too.

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@IBMichele117 I just had this idea for the eco bonus problem, hear me out, then if you don’t like it this version of the civ, you can just ignore, or apply your personal changes.

  • Each tech gives you +50 gold when it’s researched (including age ups)

  • Archers move 5/10% faster in feudal/castle age

  • Guilds is 80% cheaper and available in feudal age (because with the new bonus I felt that it was pushing it too far having it for free)

  • add whatever bonus might be needed to complete the civ

This may not seem that great, but it’s actually really good. Basically all dark and feudal age techs that cost gold pay themselves off, and for all the others it’s like having an indirect discount.

This is right away helpful for a fast castle, since you start with 100 gold, and spend 50g to get loom, which is refunded a little bit later. Then you get 50g from reaching feudal age, and another 50g from getting double bit axe, for 200 gold in total that you need to get to castle.

But in my opinion it synergies even better with an archer rush. Think about it, you reach feudal age, and you have 150 gold, those are automatically 2 archers, and the gold cost of fletching, which then also gives back the gold for another archer. Then you can also get the archer armor tech or horse collar, which cost only food and wood and gives you the gold for another 2 archers, and you can get various techs that requires only food or wood and that gives you back gold.

Basically, with a standard build you get the the gold for about 7 archers (depending if you drush), which are also faster, at the same time you can focus all your vills on wood and food and either transition to scouts (which their upgrades cost only food and gives you +100 gold) or going for castle, by abusing your market with guilds. Then in castle the bonus still help, even if on a smaller scale.

On water is also good, each tech gives you the gold for 1 and a half galley, or a fire galley. Here again you can put all your vills on food and wood, get some fire ships to protect your fish and get to castle without gathering gold or spending wood for a mining camp. Or you can mass galleys, which again benefit from fletching that basically cost no gold.

Don’t worry you don’t have to use this bonus, I just had an idea and I wanted to share it. If you don’t like it, I’ll simply post it in my discussion for a venetian civ, but I believe that it has potential, and it seems really unique. It also fit the history, since Venice became rich also thanks to its artisans other than commerce, an aspect often forgotten about the venetian culture.

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HI, during the day i thought about some sort of eco bonus that could kinda-fit the civ, and a kinda modified-more-useful UT. based of your answers:

Personally i just wanna say that im not against complicated bonuses or huge changed into the game, mainly because i know people are a bit tied up with the semplicity and non-extravagant bonuses in this games. Not that i do not like it, a bit of shaking into the game is fun, but it needs to be more calibrated and “simple” in AoE2 than in AoEIII or IV. And i like also that in the series, there is rooms for everything at the end :smile:

Being said that i think that the lumbercamp with the “square” like a folwark is a bit too much, like the monastery one. i like the fish that generate also the gold, but you need to play only water-related maps or you need to spawn a tile of fish near the tc like the gurjara with the berries. i kinda like it for how much strage it is, but i think is a bit too much.
Personally i will stay a bit more in the line with the other civs bonuses. and it came in my mind this:

  • economy upgrades are researched 66% faster, alongside with the 5%-10% faster gathering of res?

you said that that is a bit bland, yes i know, and i know that we could reflect better also other civs with more historical orientated bonuses. here im trying to give them a little more boost on the eco side in general. this is a generic bonus but it will have the focus on wood, gold, stone, fish and TCs economic upgrades:
for every upgrade you need to consider along with the cost of res itself 3 things: 1 the time for the research of the upgrade itself, 2 in how much time the cost of the tech will be recovered, 3 (for TCs) during the time of the upgrade you can not produce vills.

Basically if your upgrades are researched faster the time needed to recover the cost will be 66% less (+ a bit more with the faster gathering).

I will link here a video where spririt of the law that speaks about that, at the minute 0:52 you can see the foumula and in that case you need to add a bit of wood in the “21” couse you gather faster and change the 25 seconds of research time cause they are are researcehd 66% less… Personally i think im not able to handle all this kind of math alone :joy: . i know that the minutes overalla are not 66% less, because there are various aspects relates (how many vills, pathing, distance…)
The point here is the exponential growth of the bonus through the ages ex:(two-man saw in the video at 2:16). I mean yes at this point your eco will be established and presumibly solid. But i think is a nice boost.
The faster research of upgrades on wood will reflect a bit the ability of venetian people of build their city and their navy.I think that recovering the cost of investment faster also reflects the ability of venice merchants to do good business.

also and most important will be useful with wheelbarrow and hand cast, because if you research faster the upgrade you can produce more vills. wheelbarrow is the time for 3 vills, so basically it will cost 1 vill, and handcart that is 55 seconds of research time, will be another free vill+a half. This will be useful especially with wheelbarrow, because when you and the oppoonent have the same vill and both research wheelbarrow at teh end you will have on top 2 more vills

Personally i like the idea, but i think it’s too broken for every tech, i like for every university tech but i think there is no space in this civ concept.
But i really like it for all the eco techs, actually, i really like the bonus on eco techs, but not on aging up.
If is it applied only on eco techs:

i’ve decided to change this a bit and i will explain why.
if you have this on all the techs, this means that you could easly do a drush FC without even placing a mining camp or go on gold: with double bit axe, horse collar, the feudal up, town watch… and with the defence of loom basically will be free on gold, and you do not even spend teh res on teh wood for the mining camp, but for a straightforward market-blacksmith

also, you “could” go in castle age without a mining camp, but here will be without loom, and at the end you need teh res for both double bit axe and horse collar at least. you could research also the loom and going for wheelbarrow, but i think that you will lose some eco, because wheelbarrow is like 3 vill, and at this point you will not have a solid eco at least in open maps between walling etc… ← with this its kinda like teh ethiopian one, i like it if it affect only eco techs, where you gain some sort of “prize” because you choose to upgrade your eco, like if vills are grateful that you give them better tools :joy: :joy: :joy:
like if you are the one that invented the two-man saw or the horse collar :joy: . I mean, thats too funny, and i like it
Obiouvsly the market techs are yes discounted (square in the photo) but at the end, even if with 50% discount the market will not give you any more gold in 1v1.
! = they could gain gold shaft mining
zig zag : guilds is free and avaliable as a civ bonus

WAIT, WAIT: HEAR ME OUT:

what do you think about

  • the return of the 50% of the cost of gold of the aging up is refunded when the age is reached along with the fast working vills (5%-10%) instead of everything else?
    (100 gold in castle age, 400 gold in imperial age)

OR the

  • 33% of both food and gold (with this the vills only work 5% faster, no possibility to be incremented for now, i think it will be balanced)

(it came in my mind while i was writing :sweat_smile: ). Now it will be (165 food on feudal, 264 food and 66 gold in castle age and 330 food and 264 gold when you reah the imp). Could be tweaked for 25% of resound like in between 15% of italians and 33% of only imp of byzantines…

i think it could be really interesting to have the ability to re-gain some of the resources you have spent for aging up and it will reflect the ability of venetians capable of doing affairs (like some sort of investiment: i put the money in the bank and instead of being more money after time, here you gain the next age and some of your money is still here… if you want is some adaptament of the lombard of AoEIII :joy: … im laughing because i do not like much the lombards but i think it came up a similar and very good idea for this bonus!).

I personally think that this thing is COOL. your imperial age will cost the same of byzantines (and historically they also influenced eachother) but with a difference that bizantines have a huge momentum because they are faster. Venetians on the other hand are like the other civs, but can invest some resouces (thanks of their commerce ability) when the age is reached in the upgrades of the next age!

This is also easy to implement cause ehiopians and dravidian have some istant-age-up bonuses, and you just need to put teh right number.

(please do not destroy this idea, I’m getting more and more attached to this mechanics :sweat_smile: )

(Also, I am writing down everything that comes to mind, even if I then discard the idea. Because it could be useful for everyone that one day will read this post… now i like more the refound of res than the bonus of faster research of eco upgrades for example because i think it fit better teh civ, is something unique, and i think is what we were looking for. but the other ones are always nice ideas, and could be the “missig piece” for other civs)

1, but i think it’s enough for the start… remember that rattan have 1.1, plumes 1.2 but tehy need a castleto be trained. archers are way easy to mass, and with +10% the speed is 1.05 (with 15% 1.1) and i think having this kind of massable-fast unit is veeeeery good. but yes then with patch notes if the unit tested is weak, the bonus could be also a 5%/10%/15% for example…

here remember that you have always +1 range at teh caastle age cause of teh bonus and at the imperial age +2 until the evemy will have bracer. and in all the cases your galley line will be always a bit further than the fire ships (and you will have more possibility to micro). in consequence of the range (i didn0t mention that) but teh LoS of your galleys is also more. meaning that you can see more on the map, and you could easly choose what engagement want. remember that also the free careening and dry dock will help you attack the opponent as soon as you reach the next age. i think this is a fair price to have until imperial age. with this you can easy win battles in castle age and control the water and the shore until you reach the Imperial, where if your opponent is still alive, or if you ca not fully control the water, here your UU start to shine

you have the tanky ships: your UU in imperial age, and remember that with the potential of your castel age UT your galley will have +1 attack on top of having all the upgrades (for example they will negate the portuguese UT carrack, and you will also have on top more range on their galley in casle age. while in imperial age your focus will switch on adding some UU because you will have teh same attack of other FU galleons, but one more range of then so you will be safe. here in front you will have the Galeass, that both is hard to sink and it will absorb the damage directed at your back line of galleon (like the useless bonus on the hussite wagon, but here i think is pretty useful! As long as you can read teh game and put your Galeass in front and not at the back :sweat_smile:, but even here the closed range of this tanky ships will automatically provide to stay in front :+1:

Personally i will scrap this because is like having a team bonus that give the hussar upgrade to the frank ally, or that give the two-man saw even to civs that for balancin reason do not have that tech… you could argue that the imperial skirm do this thing in reality because turk can not have the Imp skirm because the can not upgrade their skirm, but 1: this is only for one civ in the game. 2: a bonus on the market like this will be a deadly snowball like the advice that you gave me of free coinage and banking, since everyone have guilds, even if its only in imp could you imagine the power of saracen with a venetian ally? how much good prices? and Vikings, khmer or gurjaras with their eco and with on top guilds?

i think the team bonus and guilds only as a civ bonus for venetian, in feudal is ok… who cares if someone says that is half of the saracen bonus… There are some similar bonuses out there and this game is good because they are similar, not because they are completly different or completley equal :+1:

Man, that huge :joy: BEAUTIFUL!!! :grin:

at teh start i wanted a bonus for the hand cannons, and not for the BBCs (but gunpowder). and at teh end if you look the game it basically has no more bonus for gunpowder:
movement, avaliability befere: bohemians
cheap:italians
faster firing:spanish
melee/pierce, range: hindustanis
+attack:burgundians
istant, more HP: turks
free armor: koreans
benefitting balistics: portuguese
more bonus damage: tatars

i mean the space is really tight for a unique and original bonus, but today i think i found it:

  • along with the +4 pierce armor for the BBCs your gunpowder units regenerate the health

the cost will be a bit higher, and because you also have siege engineers i want that cost always wood and gold. i think it will be more complicated to have with the fact that you are building BBCs, the siege engineers, and this…
(this is for HC, BBCs, cannon galleon) with this your cannon galleons will lose the armor, only BBCs will have it, but every gunpowder unit will regenerate 25 HP every minute. i think this will be huge for mantain your heavy gold unit avaliable. and it will also reflect teh ability of teh venetian arsenal to construct BBCs and galleons that are solid and difficult to take down and also the Venetian men’s skill with gunpowder thanks to the Venetian arsenal. what to you think about the name Venetian Arsenal for this tech?

the problen is that a unit will always deal 1 damage even it the armor is higher than the actual attack, so this is not possible.

yes but if you analize the civ it has a decent eco and a solid drush and arcehr opening, then with teh faster working vills and the 33% retourn of resources through the ages, all the bonus at the end of castle age and your potential in late imp i think that is more than fair to have a weaker post imp if you do not trade… Also every civ has their window where he shines and otehr point of teh game where he is weaker. like mongols fith a fast and deadly up until mid feudal, mayars then the new age is reached ind in imp-post imp, goths in imp-post imp. And also every civ has some weaker moment in teh game and along with civ bonuses and tech tree weakeness you will have a balanced civ.

Basically here you have as moment of weakness if your opponent reach imp before you because you have not used your castle UT, heavy swordsman or dock bonuses. you have than the possibility to catch up in imp with your BBCs-arcehrs-UU on land or your galleon-cannon galleon-UU on water. But then post imp this is a think is a window of weakness for the civ (note that you have the possibility to negate this window whit the trade) as long with some better powerspikes/civ oriented strategy in a specific moment than yours, but i think overall you have your point of weakness as long with some deadly snowball bossibility (starting with your faster movement arcehrs since feudal casue you can keep your numbers and kill few vills)

In particular:

yes but like i said the +1 ONLY for arcehrs could be +2 (skirms and galley stays with +1) or if you wanna push something of teh civ could be even a stronger archers-galley line, but with the tradeoff of a skirm so just a +2 for galley and arcehrs BUT in Castle Age

for balancing reason the hussars could be easly FU with husbandry, but overall better the lack of husbandry than bloodlines

remember that is better to have the defence than teh bracer on skirms because they are a special anti arcehrs-halbs pikes and tehy do this work great because of the bonus damage, not the bracer.

yes they will be outranged but with teh skirms against arcehrs the important is teh tradeoff between a gold unit and a non gold unit. with arbs against arbs or even against enemy skirms your movement will give you the opportunity to escape, to keep your numbers and to engage only in the fight that you want, and this sice the feudal, no you will have lost less army overall, also you will lack the last range of bracer, but with more arrack and fast movement like a mass of plumes against cavs, you have the ability do deal few more shots thanks to your movement.

with this you have absolutley right, the lack of halbs is huge. but i think, even if i love using halbs, that this is a tradeoff, maybe here on the long run is more than a lost than a gain. but i think when you create a civ you need to give also some spaces to be defeated, because it will be easy to be implemented if is not broken or with fantasy bonuses… and here i think should be the huge weakness of the civ. I think that you can confirm me that Venetian infantry was good, but i tried to reflect this give them the +1/+1 tech for potential huge snowball all-in castle age play in closed maps like socotra, and at the same time by give them the UU that in some way replace the halbs with a better version.

in the next days i will also try to tweak the stats of the “Fante Da Mar” and give him the ability to slow the rate of fire of teh enemy, also in this case i want a bonus damage against cavs and the lack of halbs, always for the explanaion that i give you up here.

i do not play AoE IV but i’ve looked at your post and i finded it very complete and educational :grin: :+1:

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Why would you make this an aura bonus as opposed to a flat “trees last 50% longer”? Also the way it is currently coded there is no way to make an aura bonus increase the resource percentage of something (not to say that it could never be done, but in this case, why bother?)

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Well it’s an idea, and i think we could not know how much potential of coding there is between ignoring armour, charge ability, revolution…

Its an idea and maybe it will be also implemented by the devs… But i think it will not be the eco bonus im looking for… btw, i really like the investiment-through-ages :thinking:

I know it’s a lot of reading, but if you have some spare time and you read it… (is still in work-in-progress mode) but what do you think about the civ?

While we are in Venice, we should also add Milan, Padua, Genoa, Crema, Carcano, Florentia, Ravenna, Pesaro, Rimini, Pavia, Piacenza, Abbiategrasso, Brescia and Verona. You know, all the Italian city-states that appeared in the game at some point.

Maybe we could add some other city-states. Papal states, Placenza, Mantua, Bergamo, Brescia, Bologna, Treviso, Vicenza, Lodi, Parma, Turin, Florence, Pisa, Lucca, Siena, Ancona, Perugia, Assisi, Naples, Amalfi and Salerno.

We can have more than 30 civs this way. Italian city-states are different enough between each other to deserve their own civ each

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In my first post i’ve written, along with other things that i clearly understand that you have not read, this.

This is a thread where people discuss about civ bonuses, and how posibly the venetian civ could be implemented into the game and not about the preferences or right for this civ to be into the game despite another.

Like i have also said:

Finally, if you do not like the concept and the meaning of this thread i encourage you not to comment here, but to go find threads where people talk about this very thing you’re saying.

Sorry if I sounded too negative, it wasn’t my intention, but I do believe that Italians would represent independent and conquered city states.

Again, sorry if I sounded offensive or negative. It wasn’t my intention

No offence, but like i said this is not the right thread to discuss about this. if you wanna speak about that i encourage you to find the right thread for your more than legit opinion. i am just pointing out that this is not the correct place for speak also about this argument.

Please… no one was offended… but for the reason of this particular thread i declare this confrontation closed.

There is no need to answer me.

you will be welcome to participate in this discussion if you want.

if i will find a thread about this argument I will be more than happy to share my opinion.

Without further speaking, goodbye