well, personally i think that vill fights were just beautiful to watch and you were very proud if you won them . but deep down i didn’t even tought about it while choosing this bonus… the main idea was a defensive bonus since the start of the game, while when you are going up… it is interesting and i like the istant loom when you’re going up, both because you are forced to going up without loom (so it will be very risky, and you need to learn how to go up quickly) and also because once you are up you will have stronger vills, someone could argue that the trush will always happens, but if you never face it, you will never learn how to defend from it.
personally i like the fact of an insta-loom-after-anxiety-for-stronger-vills, like the stats of loom plus a bit more during the age, like in feudal you gain on top of loom hp and armor…
HEAR ME OUT:
OR, since the civ lack some eco bonuses your “giving them stats per age” made me think of: you have loom and you need to research for it, but as a eco bonus in feudal all your resouces are gathered 5% faster exept for farms, in castle age vills have +10 hp (always useful and its not in feudal where vill fight and trush an happen), in imperial age they gain 1 meele armor (basically because it will help them with the hussars raid on land maps)
what do you think about this hybrid-kinda-economic-version to prevent vill fight and tower rush in feudal?
the point that i have here with this bonus however is to give them a vill that is slightly stronger than the other, but at the same time less stronger than a inca, spanish or bohemian vill
here this bonus for the military is to compensate the lack of strong eco bonuses, because your main think when you play as the venetian is “my opponent has some sort of eco bonus and i have to punish this, i need to make damage” (even if your villager stats to gather faster is not something where you can simply sit up and boom, you need to kill.
im concerned that if your vill gain the bonus of 5% faster gather for all the res exept for farmers, the discount on the archery range could be tweaked, instead of -50%–> -25% or 33%, and also the movement from 10%–>7% if is too broken for the dodge and micro. i personally do not wanna remove the discount because if you think at other archer civs we have ethiopians with thumbring + the ability to re-research it, and the +100, +100 while aging up, or the britons with faster sheperds on top of faster archery range production and then the range in castle age, mayas have the res that last 15% longer and discounted archers and this alone is stronger than the discount that i have proposed…
The point here is that all the top/little under top archer civs have this kind of synergy with a strong eco and a strong military bonus, and since the civ lack on eco i decided to give them both the faster movement and the discount on the archery range…
But if the previous bonus of loom will change progressivly while aging up (giving them +5% fast gathering starting in feudal etc… Obiuvsly the discount will be tweaked (note that is mainly for thumb ring because the other upgrade are preatty cheap and university, chemistry and balistics are all full price. The point is here to have fast archers cause you need to make damage as soon as possible and to do this you need to reach the opponent, and then to keep the pressure you have the discount archery range that help you in the next age. and remember that in both cases, for loom stronger (original idea), or vills (that gather faster and in castle-imp have HP and armor), 1 option: you will lack an eco bonuses or 2 option: you will have loom to research like everyone (so you are not aging up faster or with one more vill), you have some sort of eco bonus and you have the movement and the discount at teh arcehry range reduced
for this point the +1 range only in imperial is because the naval battle are a bit rusty (not easy to move the unit in the right spot, escape, attack… not like having archers and cavs that are dancing on the land) so i think the +1 only in imp is good, and i think careening and dry dock are more than fine even if the civ will have a +5% gathering on res
Remember also that on islands or similar maps where have a lot of water, the map is big in team game and usually the games do not end in 20-30 minutes if you do not transport, so the opponent will have time to make a back dock and remass.
Here i wanna give the venetians the powerspike as soon as you’re reaching the next age, yes you can stay at home and defend yourself, but after some game with this civs you will learn how important is to use your advantage when you have them, (like if someone is the first reaching imp and in a castle fight do not make trebs…)
I wanna push the players cause yes it could be a defensive civs (you can escape form skirms, you have he defence for the navy… But i wanna also put them in the situation with this civs to learn how to use the advantage when you have them (here with careening and dry dock, as soon as i go up i search the battle cause if both are up and research thewar galley upgrade i have careening by default, so i could win water now, not after 5 minutes. After 5 minutes i need to stay defensive cause the other payer could have some sort of bonus-on-top like more hp on the nave for example…
well yes, but actually no… i try to explain why i think its different, and i discovered this unintentionally:
a full up Bizantines castle have (with bonus, hoardings) 8131 HP, and 8 / 11 armor, cause the bizantines have no access to masonry and architecture cause of their strong HP bonus
a full up castle with masonry, architecture and hoardings like Vikings, spanish, italians… have 7028 HP and 8+2 / 11+2 armor
one day i was wondering if my elite chu ko nu could destroy a castle with a saracen ally, so i tested out in the editor with some castles with bonuses like celts, teurons, bizantines, spanish… and also with castle that lack some upgrades, like viets, cumans…
i just patrol them into the building in a scenario.
And after i make some test the results were unexpected, yes my post imp chu ko nu destroyed all the castles easly cause of teh saracen bonus, and the majority of them didn’t even die (every group with 60 or 50 chu ko nu, depends of the test) but the FU bizantine castle fell before than the FU spanish one (second like, not so much, sometimes even a couple of milliseconds). Even if i says to my chu ko nu to patron before into the spanish and right after into the bizantine.
i do not know how much this is impactful and how much this could be a real situation (cause very rarely you see chu ko nu go against casle )
i do not tested it agaist trebs, BBC, or meele units, and frankly the archers are teh last things that you want to use to hit a castle, even in post imp
But this made me think of how much the armor of masonry and architecture is important, as long as hoardings for castles as much as the bonus of bizantines for HP
i think also that in the game yes we have the bizantine bonus for HP, more HP than a standard FU castle (and is also for all the other buildings, but they lack the armor that masonry and architecture provide.
in the end yes they are the same meaning into the game (help the castle to stay up) but tehir bonuses will be different, cause one is more HP (like the bonus of viets for archers) and the other is armour for buildings (like the koreans)
here like i said the point is that if you have a knight with only the +1 attack on castle age the UU will ignore this upgrade, but if you have the +2, the damage negated will be all the +2
… yes you could simply add some armor to your unit, but it will lose his original idea ot the UU. Having 3 armor in castle age and the knight that i have against is only with the +1 of the attack… it will negate more than his original purpose.
if this type of unit is not possible to have i really like the concept of a infantry UU, with a bonus damage against cavs, but with a low base damage, and fast attack like samurai, at the same time with some pierce armor and a little bit faster than the other one
and if this thing is not possible to do for the developers.
The point here would be that is strong against cavs (huge bonus damage), and with some medium resistance against archers, but the best way to defeat them is the militia line (cause the base attack of this unit is very low, and it will have no bonus against infantry)
I think there is no other unit like this, i kinda like the fact that for counter this you need champions, like with the eagles, or also maybe a really big ball of arbs (it will be not like a eagle, ghulam or huskarl, but not weak like the normal champion)
In fact the champion will gain a bonus damage against this unit:
Long Swords: +6
Two-hand. Chamion: +8
cost 65 food 30 gold
HP: 60 70
MA: 3 4
PA: 2 3
ATK: 5 6
Speed: 1.00 1.05
LoS: 3 5
training time: 10 seconds 9 seconds
elite upgrade: 100 food 550 gold, training time 40 seconds
Bonus Damage: + 20 + 30 against cavalry / +16 +26 against camels / +22 +32 against war elephants / +11 +11 against mameluke / +2 +4 aginst eagles / +1 against buildings
with this unit they will lose access to the halbs for balancing reason, but this will be also a good unit in post imp when the gold is low, cause if it will work like a champion and will force the enemy to tech into the champion himself.
the point here is to have a ship that absorb the damage, like when you make some rams and you put them between your archers and the enemy archers, this way the enemy ships are forced to hit the big boys in front, while your galleys are doing the dirty work at the back. here on water as the enemy you really want to hit the ships behind because they are doing more damage and they have less HP, so you will click the gallleys behind, but if you do it half of the damage will be instead dealt to the naval UU, the galeass.
like i said is like when you put a ram in front of your units to force the opponent to micro.
and i think this strategy is interesting and new on water. I saw spirit of teh law uses this “thing like ram” when the sicilians recived stronger transport ships, and i thought it could be something cool if you have also the hussite wagon unique mechanic (but i agree with you that this is useless with the hussite wagon )
But I dont mind this.
here the porpuse was to give your barrack units a match with the other infantry at least in melee, cause your UU has the ability of ignore the attack of the blacksmith of the enemy. and giving this to all the infantry (so also to the UU) i thought it would be broken to have the full defence and the unique ability on the UU, but ive also compensate the barracks to be competitive in imp. And to have something thush like the halbs to put in front of the BBC and archers.
the reason of this tech? im a bit obsessive, and the fact that i miss the last armor, and the game give me this tech but at the same time it will not give me the last pierce armor… it drives me crazy (im a bit masochist, i know )
Personally i will leave this tech in castle like i said also cause of the possibility of have a castle age swordsman, or pikes with more armor in castle age, i think its very strong if you wanna push in some close maps like socotra, or if you wanna transport your infantry into the enemy islands and have some more protection in the castle age.
if the UU is replaced like in this post i think the UT should not influence the UU anyways.
i like the fact that you have a window of opportunity in late castle age before other civs like bulgarians, aztecs… research the imp techs…
you are right, was in my mind when i was eriting to have “ironclad-but-pierce”, and i did’t write cause i wanted to see if anyone reccomeded it.
im ok and i like the fact that you have the pierce armor BBC, also because you have the unique unit that in both the way (starting idea or the fast-halbs-replacement-gold-intensive) will be guarding the bombard against the meele units
for the cost i was looking to kataparuto and i wrote the number…
i think is more appropiated:
- Imperial Age Unique Tech:
Bombard Cannon and Cannon Galleon +4 pierce armor
500 wood and 450 gold
+50 seconds of time for research
well, yes, they are similar, bu i think on water the italian have a bigger powerspike with the cheaper techs, Venetians needs to take advantage in the exact moment when you are aging up cause of teh free techs. Italians can have easly shipwright and fast fire, and reach every corner of the map with the navy, Venetians on the other hands needs to stay more calm and safe hitting only at teh right time as soon as they are agin up, and do not waste their window. The unique units also needs to stay in front and not mixed like es: Vikings or portuguese, also some big group of fast fireship hitting your fleet in the wrong direction while you are sill massing can cost you the game, especially before imp.
On land yes, both are archer civs but in some sense they are more similar to bohemians with halbs/UU (depends of what the unique unit is, sonsequantally they lose the halbs) and houfnice/BBC, or ethiopians for the arcehrs+BBC
I think the strategies are a bit different, because with the italians you can go fast castle or even fast imperial, while here you need to push in feudal every time with the archers, you are dictating the phase of the game with your faster archers, a bit like the faster firing archers of the ethiopians. ex: on arena they are not the same, Venetians need time to have the BBC like the bohemians, but without eco bonuses (or with the 5% faster gathering it will be always not useful, maybe guilds, but it will kick only in the castle age, exept for teh strategy of sling in arena…). On open maps every time when the opponent reach castle age and you have to the research completes, and let’s say you have less archers or you have lost them you can go back and close yourself thanks to the free masonry, and you can play like bizantine with affordable elite skirms against archers and pikes that you can continue to use until you move/mix the unique unit thanks of the UT against cavs. Italians instead can not do this, they need to stay arcehrs and build them, transitioning/mixing only genoeses, their only switch is in imp with condos and BBC (yes tehy can use skirms or pikes, but have no short/long term bonuses on them)
yes they are both archers civs but i think its different the way of playing