In my first post i’ve written, along with other things that i clearly understand that you have not read, this.
This is a thread where people discuss about civ bonuses, and how posibly the venetian civ could be implemented into the game and not about the preferences or right for this civ to be into the game despite another.
Like i have also said:
Finally, if you do not like the concept and the meaning of this thread i encourage you not to comment here, but to go find threads where people talk about this very thing you’re saying.
No offence, but like i said this is not the right thread to discuss about this. if you wanna speak about that i encourage you to find the right thread for your more than legit opinion. i am just pointing out that this is not the correct place for speak also about this argument.
Please… no one was offended… but for the reason of this particular thread i declare this confrontation closed.
There is no need to answer me.
you will be welcome to participate in this discussion if you want.
if i will find a thread about this argument I will be more than happy to share my opinion.
Nothing wrong with wanting more AoK-like civs, this way we can appeal more people towards the venetians, you with a more traditional civ, and me with a more *“outsider” * civ.
Mmm more about they pay themselves off sooner than faster, but yes it’s still good.
Mmm yeah it could work…
It would be like:
in feudal age techs are researched 66% faster
in castle age vills gather 5% faster
in imp 10% faster
Am I correct? I mean it gives a nice sense progression and it makes it definitely less bland. The only thing is that I would think of something different for imp, but that might be the ossessive-compulsive inside me
Yeah but considering only castle age uni techs, you would get 350 gold for an upfront cost of 2700 total resources, about 8 times more of what you would get, and not all those are really that useful.
In feudal age it’s convenient to get as many techs as possible, since the cost is relatively low for what you get, and because you should get most of them anyway. But from castle age onwards, the cost increases, and the +50 gold became more of a small indirect discount on techs.
It’s still useful for techs like crossbows (which basically refunds 25% of the cost) but for s tech like ballistics, it’s about a 10% discount, italians save way more on that for example.
Anyway don’t worry, I just wanted your opinion, I’ll post my design on my discussion, so in total we’ll get to more people.
Drush FC with a standard build and no mining camp no. You start with 100 gold, spend 50g for loom but then you get 50g back, then you get 50g from feudal age and 50g from double bit axe, so a total of 200g. 3 militia cost 60g, so you are with 140g.
Now you can either place a mining camp with 1 vill (adn should be fine) or get horse collar and have 1 vill do 1 trip to the gold.
But in the end, you would hit castle with not much gold, and your knights miss BL (at least in my idea) so you don’t have that much power. It’s better for archer rush or for FC on arena maps, but on Arabia it’s not that strong. I mean consider that faster hunting or woodchopping is still probably a better bonus overall.
I get that it might seems like Ethiopians on steroids, but really Ethiopians also get food and arguably stronger archers.
This could be the third imp bonus that I talked about.
You could even do:
50% of the cost for the Imperial age is refunded
In the end its just 900 resources, and it’s a one time only.
Ok, micro could solve that, but still, as a general rule, I prefer to have bracer and then remove individual techs like galleon.
Bracer is super important, it affects archers, ships and buildings, so you are also nerfing their castles. Really in general it’s an important late game tech. If you don’t want for your civ to be good in the late game, then it’s fine, I prefer civ that are versitile in imp.
Ok, you are still giving them cheaper coinage and banking, so it’s not that bad, and the civ will be fine for 1v1.
yep, and i think having more options is always better than fewer options
maybe could even be 125-150g every tech if you choose this, and also because it will start to kick in castle age.
Btw on reddit some time ago, i have not found the source now, i remember one guy that proposed a Venetian civ, and one of the bonus was that HC will gain +1 attack for every tech in teh university.
If this is possible to implement (+1 something after the research of a tech) i think there will be potential for so many bonuses out there.
i will share my opinion also there
yea basically after my startin idea, since now in the comcept they lack both masonry and architecture for free and the keep i revisited them no more as a defensive civilization.
i know how important is the bracer but i also think that this is some sort of unique design: having something potentially almost top tier archer civ but without bracer, how!!! and then you look at teh bonuses and you understand that you have something more like UTs or +1/+1 here and there, but at the same time huge gaps like bracer or halbs. and personally i think it’s interesting…
i can’t see the image can you upload again? it says that is processing…
Hindustanis have gunpowder units with +1/+1… but at teh same time yes, a huge melee armor or huge pierce armor is still avaliable
if you have against HC or jans they deal melee damage, so it will be useless this tech, and i want that is pierce armor because teutons have that, but for example teutons could be easly have a buff with ex: +6 or +8 instead of +4… but that’s for another topic
i will try to provide more and much clear informations about all the little tweaks in the next days
Meh… HC already have a lot of attack, their problem is that you mass them too late, not their stats.
Mmm I like it more with +50 gold. It’s overall more flexible, it covers all ages, and it’s not OP because it would be their only eco bonus, and their military isn’t crazy strong.
Also, it’s easy to balance, either increasing the gold per tech, or by decreasing the starting gold. Also, gold in the first 2 ages it’s not that important (that’s why turks bonus suck) so it’s not that broken.
That’s my point, it’ll be (in my opinion of course) a top tier archer civ only in the first 3 ages, then it won’t be it anymore.
I mean, they won’t be terribly, you’ll still have HC if arbs without bracer won’t cut it, and at this point you can easily give them Italians level cav, that way they’ll do it.
It is, but you need to think on how you’ll manage the later game, into what you’ll transition, and so on… it could be awkward to transition from arbs into something else.
It seems that it won’t load it… sorry…
Ah yes… forgot about that…
Well there still is more accuracy, or the UT that transform every xbows into an HC… there is a little bit of room to work with.
Both HC, janissaries and conqs have pierce damage, not melee.
After some time, due to exams, i now have a bit of time to upload this thread with some tweaks to the concept
For someone that never read about this thread the important part is in the first post: the introduction until the civilization bonuses
(they are outdated and some of them discarded. but if you find something useful for something that you have in mind fell free to read all the posts )
A disclaimer that i like to repeat: This thread is not meant to be the place to discuss the priority of this civilization over others that might be implemented into the game, this is just a place where people can discuss about civilization bonuses for a potential addition of the venetians.
With this in mind i encourage everyone to discuss and post accordingly, or find/create another thread that suits your intentions.
Having said that, in this post n. 28 a concept will be presented that summarizes the help and advices that everyone has expressed above (thank you) with some other things that i came up during this period of time.
Civilization bonuses:
Archers movement +5%/+10%/+15% in feudal/castle/imperial age
Every technology, including age-ups, will refund 15% of their cost
Galley line +1 range in castle age and imperial age (+2 in total)
Trade carts and trade cogs return 50% of their cost when killed
Team bonus:
Trade carts, trade cogs 2x HP
Note for: Archers movement +5%/+10%/+15% in feudal/castle/imperial age
this means more micro potential and better timing. this also to compensate the greedy approach that you could have with the advantages of your second bonus
Note for: Every technology, including age-ups, will refund 15% of their cost
This is their main economic bonus, for this to work you need to research the tecnology (at full price) first. Only when the tecnology is completed you recive the 15% back.
Is different from Italians or chinese bonuses: you have the discount immediatly, not after you have invested the resources.
This is like the dravidians or ethiopians bonuses with a mix of the chinese… with a twist…
This is for rappresent the ability of the venetians in the commerce and affairs, you pay for something, and when the deal is successful you can even get something more back, as if it were a profitable investment
(Not cheaper and before, but same price with a “gift” to re-invest).
This can delay a bit the timing of the civilization, but could be very dangerous if let untouched because it scales, and i think is unique and suit the civilization
IMPORTANT
Is this too strong in early game? what do you think considering is their only eco bonus and there are in the game some civs like Chinese, Mayans or Vikings? should be like the chinese one: 10%/15%/20% of refund during the ages?
Note For: Galley line +1 range in castle age and imperial age (+2 in total)
We all know the reputation of britons on land… This is your military bonus on water maps.
Note for: Trade carts and trade cogs return 50% of their cost when killed and TB: Trade carts, trade cogs 2x HP
extra gold means extra life sometimes… Right?
TB will be useless on 1v1, but in team game could be really helpful for raidings (trade carts from 70HP to 140HP; trade cog from 80HP to 160HP)
these two bonuses can be swapped…
Castle age Unique Tech: Double crossbow
Galley line and Archer line fire an additional bullet
Cost: 450 food 300 gold
research time: 35 seconds
Note:
1 flat damage (unaffected by blacksmith, upgrades, chemistry or thumb ring, affected by balistics)
40% accuracy
This is a Mix between Bogsveigar and Hul’che javelineers: +1 applied to archers and a ship unit, like the Vikings UT but it works like a second projectile, with less accuracy, like the Mayans UT.
You can research this tech in castle age, and not in imperial age like the vikings.
Less accuracy does not mean having the same damage output as the vikings, on 1v1 is worse, with mass is better (because of thumb ring)
This works well with the longer-range galleys, and help in mass fights
Is meant to be a late castle age investiment for your archers
Imperial Unique Tech: Venetian arsenal
Siege and gunpowder units created 66% faster
Cost: 500 wood 400 gold
research time: 50 seconds
Note:
This include all the siege workshop units, hand cannoneers, your naval UU, petards and trebuchets.
It cost a bit more of 2 trebs (like kataparuto), if you can afford this tech as soon as you hit imperial age and thanks to the venetian bonus you will have the 15% of the cost refunded. (15% of 450= 75 wood, 15% of 400= 60 gold) a bit more than 1/4 of one treb.
This for the same cost of time of producing 1 treb. Will help you later to pop out more trebs than your opponent.
(remember that the refund of imperial age will give you 15% gold, so 15% of 800 = 120gold)
This tech will also give you some faster switch later in the game
Castle unique Unit:
For the castle unique unit i was not convinced with something strong against cavarly, because italians have one too. I tought about some gunpowder unit, but i can not came up with a good design… i tought about a mix with halbs and champion, because now the flemish milita is nerfed a bit in term of stats… But at the end i decided, after reading some posts on this forum and some articles about venice, to give them a cavarly unit also because i think you need to incentivize flexibility with this design.
The design i came up with is a mid-armored, historically mercenary type unit, with the same blast radius ability of ghulams and a high cost in terms of gold
Stradiot:
Cost: 55 food 75 gold
Training time: 15s, 14s (elite)
HP: 120, 150 (elite)
Attack: 12, 14 (elite), Blast radius: 1 tile radius in the line of attack [50% effect]
RoF 1.9
Melee Armor 1, 2 (elite)
Pierce Armor 2, 3 (elite)
Armor class: cavalry, unque unit
Speed 1,4
LoS 5
Elite upgrade cost: 850 food 1100 Gold
Upgrade research time: 40s
Bonus damage: +4 against eagles, +4 against archers, +4 against buildings
Note: as a reference i have used the cost of the boyar, and a mix of units for the stats (konnik, knight line, cataphract, tarkan, magyar huszar and ghulam) for the stats.
I have not tested the unit yet, but im castle age shuld act like a knight (more expensive and not worthy 1v1, but agaist mass skirms/archers… In imperial age against mass archers or as a complementary unit could be better
Naval Unique Unit:
the porpuse of this unit is to have something bigger and tanky to put in front of your ranged galley. But this unit is only avaliable in imp
Also it will work like a ram in front of your archers, but unlikely the ram this unit will have an attack. i like the fact also that this unit could be used in the Battel Of Lepanto, in the historical battles.
Galeass:
Cost: 150 wood 90 gold
Training time: 50 seconds
HP: 275
ATK: 10 (melee) main, shoot other 4 projectiles that deal in a wide area like the organ gun, the sendondary projectiles deal 1 damage (they ignore the armor), bonus damage applied only on main projectile
MA: 4
PA: 8
Range: 6
RoF: 3.45
Speed: 1.3
LoS: 7
Accuracy: 85%
Projectile speed: 7.5
Bonus damage: +10 against Unique units / +10 against ships, fishing ships, buildings
Note:
I used as a reference the turle ship and the thirisdai.
I like the fact of a UU on water with the bonus against the other UU on water, like the samurai.
The unit is intended without the need for upgrades from the blacksmith or university
This is incredible OP, consider that water play is very different from land.
On land, it’s not a problem if britons have +2 range on their units, they lack tumb ring and xbows have tons of different counter to them (knights, hussars, skirms, onagers, rams, BBCs…). On water instead the ultimate strategy is usually to just mass galleons, and who have the biggest mass win.
Having +2 would make your galleons being able to constantly outrange your enemy mass and to even better micro FFS (that aren’t already that viable anymore in the late game).
You can give them the +2 range if you want, but then you can’t give them FU galleon, like remove the galleon upgrade, and leave them with more fragile, but with higher range war galley (which is also more historically accurate).
This isn’t bad, but alone cannot be considered an eco bonus.
Consider that chinese get the same amount of discounted resources in castle age, but they get those resources before clicking the tech, so they can afford it sooner.
Yeah you will eventually have more resources from more and more refunds that allows you to get other techs or military units, but the civ eco will be very slow even when compared with the eco of the Italians, that might have the discount just on the age up, but it’s a proper discount.
66% faster is a lot… might want to tune down that a bit…
Well now the galleons that we were talking before are even more broken… and it’s probably too much even for xbows that already move faster.
You pointed out almost everything that i thought to be “excessive”
For the Galley line and the not so smooth water balance/fights i like your thoughts.
I like, for this particular build, to have the civ with a wide tech tree, even if as you said is not the most historically accurate thing, i wanna keep the galleon and give them only the +1 in castle age and leave the galleon upgrade.
Will be more balanced?
Yea, chinese and italians have the discount immediatly but if you consider when you are in feudal and you make double-bit axe and horse collar, you open archers and you make the attack on the blacksmith the resources that are refunded for you are: ( 75 food for the feudal age up, 15 food from double-bit axe, 11.25 food from horse collar, 15 food from the attack on the blacksmith116. 25 food saved for click castle age, with the food you can teoretically afford the attack on the blacksmith before or do other things. Italians have only the 75 food discounted from the feudal discount, and in feudal you basically click up with the same vills/build for archers. But in this situation you can choose to use those resources for other things too (ex: add a stable and do 3 scouts)… Basically this 116.25 are the 120 food that italians save for castle age… for the gold instead you have only (with same upgrades from before + loom), only 7.5 for the attack on the blacksmith and loom, so 15 gold, and italians get 30 discount for the castle age…
Is not straightforward, obviously is a greedy approach, i like that you need to “bet” for some bonuses that might let you have an advantage or let you behid and lose the game
Maybe could be added one of the bonus i suggested some posts ago:
economic upgrades are researched faster (like 50%) to have the resources in your bank a bit early especially in the early game and this will also help your mid-game when you research whellbarrow and hand cart; they “cost” in terms of villager production 3 and 2… meaning that you “lose” only 1,5 and 1 villager… Total of 2.5 instead of 5… with no idle time by you and your opponent you could he ahead also in terms of villagers
What do you think of this bonus together with the refund on the technology?
this will affect mill upgrades, lumber camp upgrades, mining camp upgrades, whellbarrow, hand cart, coinage, banking, guilds and gillnets… All the economic technology
the point i thought about with this was the flexibility first, and only after the strenght of the bonus itself.
yea, 50% is more than enough
This additional projectile deal only 1 damage, and is not influenced by anything except balistics
with the low accuracy, (that could be toned down even to something like 30%)
This is just a little buff in mass fight. like the Hul’che javelineers
galleons now have only +1 range, for the galley line this projectile will not contain the bonus damage against ships, so is basically 1 more inaccurate damage, but in mass fight could help your fleet a lot
An imperial age Archer will have the same speed of rattan archers (1.1) (if i made wrong calculations my intent was to have 1.1 of speed in imperial, so from 0.96 for standard archers to around 1.00 in feudal, aroud 1.05 in castle age and around 1.1 in imperial age).
For example plumed archers move at 1.2, knights at 1.35 and cavarly archers at 1.4… they can escape bad upcoming fights with standard archers or skirmisher… but not against cavarly units.
The cost could be increased from 450 food and 300 gold to something like 500 food 650 gold. With this it can always be avaliable in castle age for some potential nice buff but with an important investiment or you can simply research this on the way to imperial age/in imperial age…Will be basically like yeomen.
Now is basically the cost of yeomen and bogsveigar, but with the resources swapped of the vikings UT.
What do you think instead about the availability of redemption and the fact that they have both masonry, architecture and fortified walls?? is too much? (especially redemption)
For redemption:
On one hand i think the fact that they lack strong stable option and bloodlines is justified, + the UU is heavy on gold. On the other hand they have some speedy archers do dodge, and the castle age UU is balanced to make up for the lack of bloodlines… But i think is too much of an option…
can you upload again? it says that is processing…
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