# New East Asian Regional Unit Idea: Fire Lancers **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [February 3, 2023, 8:18am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897 "2023-02-03T08:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/azwadkm22/32/109445_2.png) [@azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/azwadkm22)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 8:18am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/1 "2023-02-03T08:18:09Z")
With the hope that Jurchens, Tanguts and Khitans be added to the game in the near future. Could there be a design for a new Regional Cavalry Unit shared by these three civs and the current Chinese called the Fire Lancer. Unique Effect: First hit against any unit shocks the opponent, stunning them for 1 second, which essentially makes them unable to move or attack for 1 second.(could be tweaked for balance) With this new Regional Units, each of these civs could get some bonus which would give different effects to these units. Such as, More Armor, Health, Increased Damage, Increased stun time, Cost reduction, Bonus Damage to buildings etc. ---
**Author:** ![TwerDefender](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/twerdefender/32/35015_2.png) [@TwerDefender](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TwerDefender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/2 "2023-02-03T14:40:32Z")
stunning and other status effects like this (poison, slowing or burning come to mind) don’t feel like age of empires 2 ---
**Author:** ![casusincorrabil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@casusincorrabil](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/casusincorrabil)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/3 "2023-02-03T15:39:00Z")
Even charged attacks like coustillier and urumi are already problematic. All this kind of stuff is just usually extremely snowbally and unfun to play against. I don’t say there can’t be nice effects. I personally spoke out for things like a “speed charge” for elephants. ### ##### that **reduces** interaction is bad. ---
**Author:** ![TwerDefender](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/twerdefender/32/35015_2.png) [@TwerDefender](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TwerDefender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/5 "2023-02-03T15:42:36Z")
did you get censored because you wrote ‘but’ and then ‘stuff’, and that sounds like fifth base? that’s so funny ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/7 "2023-02-03T15:45:00Z")
> [@TwerDefender](#): > > stunning and other status effects like this (poison, slowing or burning come to mind) don’t feel like age of empires 2 It is true that the design of OP, such like the target being completely frozen or the effect having an effective time, does not cater to the style of AoE2. But in the other way, we can refer to the Obuch, making unit attacks change the target’s stats, which can make enemies slower, slower to fire, etc. This may be better accepted. I give this concept to the UU of the potential Jurchen civilization, the flail cavalry. > [@\[Just for fun\] Unique Units for hypothetical new civs](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/just-for-fun-unique-units-for-hypothetical-new-civs/219911/52): > > The UU of Jurchens: Iron Flail > … > The image of this unit can refer to the AoE3 Iron Flail. In AoE2, I want it to be a melee cavalry with 1 or 2 range, with lower attack than Knight line, but can cause damage to multiple units in a straight line, similar to Chakram Thrower and Scorpion. And/Or, the enemy units damaged by it will slow the speed and rate of fire by 10% (no stack), similar to the snare effect of AoE3. The slowed units must be fully healed to restore, like Obuch’s ability. * * * > [@azwadkm22](#): > > Regional Cavalry Unit I don’t like making the Fire Lancer a cavalry unit. The cavalry type of the Fire Lancer in AoE4, I think it refers to certain artworks on the Internet, and it emphasizes the Mongolian military style as a Yuan Dynasty unit. Mechanically, the AoE4 Fire Lancer is just like a Coustillier + Tarkan + trample damage, no such a fancy shock effect, but even if this design is used in AoE2, there will still be problems. This weapon tends to be better suited to infantry use. As far as I know, it is indeed mostly used by infantry. In my opinion, the fire lancer is more suitable as a foot unit, and may simply serve as a predecessor to the Hand Cannoneer, without a fancy gimmick or particularly powerful effect. In this way, it would not affect the balance of the existing civilizations too much. > [@\[Just for fun\] Unique Units for hypothetical new civs](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/just-for-fun-unique-units-for-hypothetical-new-civs/219911/113): > > Fire Lancer > The first regional unit, a foot cannoneer that can be trained at Archery Ranges in the Castle Age. > The stats are basically the same as Hand Cannoneer, only with a shorter range (maybe 6) and lower accuracy (maybe 55%). This makes it necessary to stay close to the opponent units to exert its strong power, just like how it worked in history. > It can be upgraded to Hand Cannoneer by Chemistry. This also reflects the evolution of gunpowder weapons from the fire lance to the hand cannon. ---
**Author:** ![azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/azwadkm22/32/109445_2.png) [@azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/azwadkm22)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/8 "2023-02-03T16:42:13Z")
> [@TwerDefender](#): > > status effects like this (poison, slowing or burning come to mind) don’t feel like age of empires 2 Although I do agree with you to some extent but let’s be honest, neither did dodging projectiles, reducing armor or charge attacks. But it has been implemented in game. I’m just stating potential changes. > [@casusincorrabil](#): > > All this kind of stuff is just usually extremely snowbally and unfun to play against. I see value in your point, but the point I’m trying to make is that these effects are unique and could be implemented. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > predecessor to the Hand Cannoneer I don’t like this change, as this just makes them just weaker hand cannons. Perhaps they could be a separate unit that has extra range and counters Infantry. I don’t have any problem of them being Infantry Units tho. Perhaps, dealing half damage for a certain amount of time could be acceptable as the “shock” effect? ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/9 "2023-02-03T17:11:23Z")
> [@azwadkm22](#): > > I don’t like this change, as this just makes them just weaker hand cannons. They are trainable in the Castle Age and do not require Chemistry. Somewhat they would still be useful. Also, since the unit is going to be accessible to existing civilizations, it must not be “too useful” to affect the existing balance too much. > [@azwadkm22](#): > > Perhaps they could be a separate unit that has extra range and counters Infantry. Making the FL have a longer range than HC is pretty wrong. This seems to mean that you may not know the actual working principle of fire lances, its development history and relationship with hand cannons. To me, symbolizing the development of fire lance into hand cannon in history is an important purpose of this design. Making FL a separate unit is an even more ambivalent design for me personally. > [@azwadkm22](#): > > dealing half damage for a certain amount of time could be acceptable as the “shock” effect? Do we really need such a gimmick? Especially for a regional unit rather than for an UU. ---
**Author:** ![azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/azwadkm22/32/109445_2.png) [@azwadkm22](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/azwadkm22)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/10 "2023-02-03T17:13:27Z")
Sorry about the confusion, by extra range I meant extra range than normal Infantry not HC. I was thinking along the lines of Kamayuks. ---
**Author:** ![TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/tommochocolate/32/197278_2.png) [@TommoChocolate](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TommoChocolate)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/11 "2023-02-03T21:46:28Z")
I’m not keen on the stun attack suggestion, it seems pretty anti-fun to me, especially for a cavalry unit. Player input is such a fundamental part of computer games that I think developers should be very wary of allowing it to be taken away or restricted, even for a short time. In particular, there should always be a way to avoid or prevent these kinds of mechanics. In an RPG or beat-em-up that’s usually done with a dodge or block or interrupt, but I don’t see how it could work in an RTS like AoE2. (Then again, maybe I have an extreme view on this kind of thing – even cinematics in games can annoy me for the same reason.) ---
**Author:** ![KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/karsthillfort77/32/65065_2.png) [@KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KarstHillFort77)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/12 "2023-02-04T00:16:50Z")
I also envision the Fire Lancers as a East Asian regional infantry unit, however unlike Upmost who places them as predecessors to the Hand Cannoneer, I propose them to be a siege infantry unit trained at the Siege Workshop and do not have an elite upgrade. They function similarly to a Fire Ship and are good against siege weapons and buildings but are weak against anything else. I know there is a Flamethrower unit in the Scenario Editor but I’m not a big fan of siege weapons moving on its own we already have several siege weapons like that and I don’t want another one, it’ll be way cooler to have a siege infantry wielding a fire lance. Alternatively, the East Asian regional unit could be the Grenadier, again a siege infantry that is only good against siege weapons and buildings, though throws primitive ceramic grenades rather than shooting out flame. ---
**Author:** ![Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/mahazona/32/213405_2.png) [@Mahazona](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Mahazona)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/13 "2023-02-04T03:18:19Z")
> [@KarstHillFort77](#): > > East Asian regional unit could be the Grenadier, This can fit multiple civis not just east asian.Byzantines also had greek fire throwers. ---
**Author:** ![SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/smum15236/32/29763_2.png) [@SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SMUM15236)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/14 "2023-02-14T04:55:06Z")
I’m really open to the idea of new regional units for potential civs. Can be a replacement of generic units like DOI civs with EA or replacement of generic upgrades like Poles and Lithuanians with WH. Fire Lancer has a perfect potential to replace knight or LS (militia and maa should be remained same for balance purpose). However stun is just too much gimmick for this game. ---
**Author:** ![LilimTheCupid](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/lilimthecupid/32/119084_2.png) [@LilimTheCupid](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/LilimTheCupid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 10:44am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/15 "2023-02-14T10:44:22Z")
The Fire Lancer should be a Halberdier with a charged gunpowder attack with low range but also minimum range. It does not use its gunpowder attack while being engaged in a melee fight but it can fire from a few tiles away at approaching cavalry. > **[Fire lance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_lance)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The fire lance (simplified Chinese: 火枪; traditional Chinese: 火槍; pinyin: huǒ qiāng; lit. 'fire spear') was a gunpowder weapon and the ancestor of modern firearms. It first appeared in 10th–12th century China and was used to great effect during the Jin-Song Wars. It began as a small pyrotechnic device attached to a polearm weapon, used to gain a shock advantage at the start of a melee. As gunpowder improved, the explosive discharge was increased, and... “[The Fire Lance] began as a small pyrotechnic device attached to a polearm weapon, used to gain a shock advantage at the start of a melee.” I’m not really a fan of stunning effects. ---
**Author:** ![SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/smum15236/32/29763_2.png) [@SMUM15236](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/SMUM15236)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/16 "2023-02-18T16:18:52Z")
> [@LilimTheCupid](#): > > The Fire Lancer should be a Halberdier with a charged gunpowder attack I think it will be a nightmare to balance a trash unit with both melee and ranged attack. Maybe sticking to knight replacement will be better. My idea Cost - 65f/70g TT - 30 sec HP - 100, 120 Attack - 9, 11 (melee) and 25, 30 (pierce) ROF - 2.0 CD - 40 seconds Range - 5 Accuracy - 60% Armor - 2/2 Upgrade cost - 500f/400g Upgrade time - 100 seconds ---
**Author:** ![KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/karsthillfort77/32/65065_2.png) [@KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KarstHillFort77)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/17 "2023-02-18T20:21:11Z")
I think East Asian civs could have something called Flail Cavalry as a knight replacement. Horseback flail was widely used in medieval East Asia. On the contrary, the fire lance was mostly used as an infantry weapon during siege or siege defense. I envision it to be a unit trainable at the siege workshop but doesn’t have an elite upgrade, it would function similarly to a land version of the fire ship and has bonus damage against siege weapons and buildings, but is weak against anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Pajeveloso](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/pajeveloso/32/29562_2.png) [@Pajeveloso](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Pajeveloso)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/18 "2023-02-19T02:42:05Z")
This could be a flamethrower, it exists in scenario editor ---
**Author:** ![KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/karsthillfort77/32/65065_2.png) [@KarstHillFort77](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KarstHillFort77)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/new-east-asian-regional-unit-idea-fire-lancers/223897/19 "2023-02-19T20:12:40Z")
Yes but we already have several siege weapons moving on their own, so adding a flame-throwing siege infantry would be way cooler.