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Another possibility for tweaking their water discount (if needed) is making their fisher ship discount like indian villager’s one: 10%/15%/20%/25%. Or something like that.
So, with 40% doch tech discount and the above new fishing ship discount, together a 20% age up discunt AND some extra tiny buff (eco or military) they could age up faster and save similar resources in water, plus being better on land.
In case of eco buff, maybe it could be that proposal about “villagers can drop resources in any economic building”, so they still can save extra wood for archer rushes (i.e: building a dock near of deer meat)
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Or just allow them to be garrisoned in docks
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@DoctBaghi @JokerPenguin593 @JonOli12
I promised a computation on how to maintain the exact water balance by reducing the dock tech discount and increasing the age up discount.
Since Italians are our “defense” vs the old viking mirror island match, the computation ensures that the amount of resources italians spare remains constant.
So:
- apply the exact build order you do with the current balance in a standard island match
- you will be able to afford all the techs in the exact moment you currently do
- you will see at the beginning of the castle fight and at the beginning of the imp fight the same amount of resources of the current balance in your stockpile
This is to say that I agree with @DoctBaghi and @JonOli12 that Italians should not be nerfed on water if Viking do not. Here some options
let me precise that Italians, in the current patch, save
- 765 resources from feudal + castle + dock tech (applied to castle age techs) discounts from feudal to castle
- 1850 resources from imp discount + dock tech discount (applied to imp tech excluding cannon galleons and elite cannon galleons)
The goal is to make these number constants.
I have excluded cannons since:
- they are not a research with important priority, so they are always postponed, while the other techs are researched by Italians as the hit the age
- Italians have condos as game ending options, so it is a minor issue if the cannon galleons are a bit less viable. Clearly a specific discount for this could be implemented if you really want to maintain also this, but I do not see this an important or difficult to implement (just say dock discount can be set to X% for all techs but cannon galleon ones, for which it stays at 50%)
Option 1
- Dock teck discount 40%
- age up discount is 20%
then
- Resources saved from feudal discount + castle discount + dock tech (applied to castle age techs): 732 vs current 765
- Resources saved from from imp discount + dock tech discount (applied to imp tech excluding cannon galleons and elite cannon galleons): 1624 vs current 1850
Notice that this balance option is a relevant water nerf for Italians in imp, then it should be discarded. In fact, despite the improvements of land balance, the imp water Italian game is heavily hit. This does not respect the condition of maintaining the water balance untouched we all want (I am with you, @DoctBaghi, and @JonOli12).
Option 2
- Dock teck discount 35/45% in castle/imp
- age up discount is 25%
then
- Resources saved from feudal discount + castle discount + dock tech (applied to castle age techs): 753 vs current 765
- Resources saved from from imp discount + dock tech discount (applied to imp tech excluding cannon galleons and elite cannon galleons): 1872 vs current 1850
Option 3
- Dock teck discount 35/40% in castle/ imp
- age up discount is 20/25/30% for feudal/castle/imp
then
- Resources saved from feudal discount + castle discount + dock tech (applied to castle age techs): 728 vs current 765
- Resources saved from from imp discount + dock tech discount (applied to imp tech excluding cannon galleons and elite cannon galleons): 1804 vs current 1850
As example: to have the exact numbers of the current balance (i.e., 765 and 1850): dock discount to 38.5/41.5% in castle/imp
Option 4
- Dock teck discount 30/40% in castle/ imp
- age up discount is 30%
then
- Resources saved from feudal discount + castle discount + dock tech (applied to castle age techs): 774 vs current 765
- Resources saved from from imp discount + dock tech discount (applied to imp tech excluding cannon galleons and elite cannon galleons): 1804 vs current 1850
Clearly the larger the option number, the more relevant the land buff.
So option 4 is the one in which Italians are stronger on land.
Just open to discussions. I do not propose poll for the moments… not even sure if it would make sense
It is a bit more complicated than that.
Aging up faster also means getting eco upgrades faster (including gillnets), so with time italians could afford more techs than before, because of more early eco income. Its a similar situation than vietnamese or viking eco bonus
However, I agree with these approach. If italians resulted too OP, then they can nerf one bonus a bit to compensate.
Thank you for your work. Are your engineer or something?
The bonus is good mainly in dark, and then a bit in feudal, if you reduce it in dark from 10% to 15% it’s nerf.
Thank you for the math, I know that re-Balancing the age-dock discounts is an option and could work, I would prefer a military bonus to give a bit of more identity.
Still, this is a viable option.
I agree that aging up faster is more complicated. But let us be careful: aging up faster is different from aging up cheaper.
If you have a cheaper age up, you can go up earlier but with less vills (that is why malay bonus is preferred), which means a weaker eco. So it is not always so good. For instance for italians aging up one vill less in feudal is not a great advantage, since they arrive earlier in feudal, but with less resources (and vils) than a generic civ, despite the cheap age up.
This is due to the fact that a generic civ goes up with one vill more and that vill collects a lot of resources in the transition to feudal.
The real advantage of pushing more resources in the age up discount is the flexibility. So you can put the resources in non-dock tech. This may be useful even in water maps, since you may be forced to fight a landing. Clearly, this changes everything in land maps, where the dock discount is useless.
That is why I think that option 3, where you have slightly less resources than the current balance, makes sense. You have a bit of extra flexibility to fight landings, but a small nerf to the cannon galleons and a small nerf to the amount of saved resources.
Overall I totally agree with you when saying:
In the following patch to the one implementing this rebalance you can see if Italians are actually penalized or buffed, and tune the dock discount on the basis of the evidence. But I expect a small adjustment, if any.
Yes
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Actually, my feeling is that Italians have more an identity of a civ reaching earlier the technological advantage, than an archer civ. This is also historically accurate. This playstyle would be pretty unique. Essentially if properly buffed as in options 3 or 4 (where the reduction of the dock discount is larger), it is a free-free-tech. Everytime you go up, you are free to choose a free tech as you get to the next age. That can be the archer armor ofc.
The rebalance is flexible (it can be used to pay an archer tech for instance, so in some sense it is equivalent to a free archer armor approach) and does not need the introduction to a further bonus.
Still the military bonus makes sense, but at this point I would say that, if you see the need of boosting the pierce armor in the late game, then you can just buff pavise. I do not feel Italians in need for a late game buff, but I would rather pick a buffed pavise and a rebalancing instead of just a military buff.
Moreover I am curious on which option people like more between the rebalancing ones.
No why, they were never that much famous for their “technological advances”, while in the Italians states almost all citizens have to learn how to use the crossbow, and they were often hired as mercenarys.
The cheaper age up can speed up the aging up, since it means that you can click up with less vills.
Right now, italians can click up with one vill less.
But then you still have more resources, both because you save some aging up, and both because you can grab sooner the eco upgrades.
More vill collect more during aging up, but feudal vills collect faster than dark vills, so you and up with better eco.
I am referring to this, which was also what I knew about the Italians in middle ages.
here:
The Italians were best known for being a center of culture and knowledge at the city of Florence during the Renaissance which revolutionized the way Europeans think. This made them ahead of other European kingdoms at that time as a result of trading with the more advanced Islamic and Far Eastern kingdoms, therefore the Italians can advance through the Ages at a lower cost. To represent the technological benefits of the Silk Road, Italians’ gunpowder units cost less.
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They were, actually. The cheaper Age Ups and over-teching theme is likely a refference to the Church’s tradition of trying to restore some of Rome’s power and cultural artifacts, and the Renaissanse.
Italians get their Renaissance faster than other civs, but after everyone catches up they only get the merit of getting there faster (or cheaper, in this case).
Still the theme makes sense and is quite unique.
Imo the balancing fits perfectly also the playstyle.
I agree with @DoctBaghi that the late game could be improved, but I would prefer to do this by pavise, if we really feel the need (so buffed pavise + rebalancing of the two discounts).
This is quite complicated, since if you go up faster, you may not have the resources to afford the eco upgrades. Pros almost always play Malay by staying more in feudal to go up as the opponent but with more vills.
Overall in the balancing proposals the difference from now would be limited. Also, especially if you consider that I have excluded the cannon galleons, Italians are slightly nerfed on water on options 3 and 4. This is hopefully compensated by the things you are saying.
Also, if it turns out that italians are nerfed or buffed too much, just tune the dock discount in the following patch.
Assume for instance we pick option 3, and think of castle age:
- do we get that Italians are buffed? Then put the dock discount to 33%. This mean 706 resources saved vs the current 765. Or to 30%. This means 674 resources. Almost 100 res nerf
- do we get that italians are nerfed? Put the dock discount to 40%. They would save 782 resources which is basically equal to the 765 they save now
With some small tunings you can actually give italians an identity and maintain the water balance for islands.
From a numerical point of view, the power of Italians becomes less sensitive to the dock discount since the dock discount becomes (with this balance) a smaller part of their strength. This makes Italians easier to balance in a following patch.
This would fix the biggest balance problem of this civ (which is maybe the most difficult one to balance): all their power is currently in a single bonus (the dock discount) which is useless in almost all the maps, while it is a top bonus in islands.
Then there is another theme, that both Italians and Viking may be nerfed to help other civs on islands… but this is another story… let us wait to see how the new Koreans/Portugues work…
NEVER. Not until Earth stops being my Abode.
For Stacking is the devil’s work.
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This idea is fresh and novel. I’d like for any civ buffs henceforth to be as unique and fresh as possible.
The khmer house bonus was one such terrific idea, which gives the civ a spice and a flavour.
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Yeah, but trust me on this…
Yeah but at the same time they ban and stopped a lot of scientific research…
The renaissance happened more because they dominate the trade between Europe and Asia.
Also, to a point of view, they stayed in the “dark ages” longer than other European civs.
That could work too, not the best option in my opinion, but still better than nothing.
SotL made a video with hera explaining it.
Sorry but from the smartphone I can’t link it.
I would prefer to find a definitive solution, and avoiding go bock and forward for months.
I do, but I do not think you are negating that Italians were a cultural center. Still I believe you on the archer part, 100%.
I think we have to separate the issues. Italians need:
- an early game help -> this is for true 100%
- a late game archer help -> here someone may disagree. Personally I agree, but still I would say that they are not the worst late game civ. They are probably the weakest early game civ
The rebalance is much more versatile (and imo unique).
Let me say like this: the rebalance can be played as free archer armors, but it is more useful, for instance, if you are going knights.
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