Yes, but it is negligible. If you do the computation, you can go up 1 vill less. But with a weaker eco. If your opponent goes up 1 vill later, it will reach feudal with the same resources you have (and +1 vill, 25 seconds later) since in the transition that vill collects the miserable amount of resources italians spare. Sotl did the computation maybe. But it is intuitive imo.
The bonus is almost negligible simply because it is too small. One option would be to nerf the water tech discount to increase the age up one, to maintain everything as it is on water but to give italians a real identity of civ with fast aging up also on land.
I think it is not.
It basically is an extra Scout or Villager or free Horse Collar in the Feudal Age.
It translates to an even better upgrade or unit in the Castle and Imperial Ages.
I did a computation for a bonus of a gold trickle starting from feudal, but I can do a similar computation for this balancing between dock discount and age up discount.
if you go up at the same time of you opponent, it is 75f boost. Much less than any other civ (at least the one with discounted or free tech) in the game in terms of spared resources. The majority of the civs not only have a stronger eco, but also some military bonus entering the game.
For instance Ethiopians, which are considered by someone in needs for a buff, get +100f,+100g. And also better archers. Much better.
My point is that it is fine if Ethiopians are superior on land, but not so much in both eco and military.
A +1PA (or free armor techs) would close the military gap a bit (as @DoctBaghi is saying).
Another option is a small eco boost, balanced with the dock discount. They will get a eco closer to the other civs, despite weaker soldiers.
See for instance my proposal of the one relic gold trickle. It is modest, someone says usless, but at least it makes them a bit more decent. It is also a new kind of eco bonus that improves game variety.
I will do the math for the balancing between dock and age up
If they ever touch Italians Dock discount, then it will just be Vikings Mirror Matches forever on Water, like in AoC.
The only thing that makes Italians competitive on Water, is the 50% cheaper techs. Even a good eco bonus would never competer with the Vikings 2 free most expensive and efficient Eco techs + cheaper Docks + cheaper Ships + Longboat.
Koreans have cheaper Ships, a Wood bonus for all units and the best Ship in the game, and even they cannot compete with Vikings.
Touching Italians Water will only destroy it permanently, since they are not special in the Water in any way, except in out-teching the opponent.
Let me put like this. If they spare 100 from dock discount and 10 from age up, they will remain exactly the same if they will spare 70 from dock discount and 40 from age up.
I perfectly agree with you and @DoctBaghi that the eco bonus MUST compensate the dock discount nerf. And this is mathematically possible, to leave everything as it is on water.
Thatās not true, I like the new condos, but EEW are faster and have more PA on top of their civ UT (more attack, armor HP).
So even if condos now beat EEW, the latter are still better in general.
But you need a castle to perform a good condos rush, and that slow you down by a lot.
They are an archer civs, so and archer bonus seem fit.
But then theoretically you could shift one vill from gold to wood, so the impact that you have on land is the same that you have on water.
My opinion is that alone on land itās not enough, but on water on top of their already existing bonuses, could potentially be OP.
Iāll look in depth in another moment, but it doesnāt convince meā¦
Yeah but try it vs mongolsā¦
However, even assuming that their fast imp condos is a good strat (I think it is, but it yet has to be confirmed), itās still an all in one trick pony, you have one chance to win, otherwise you lose.
It is a lot better, safer and easier to just give them a buff that donāt impact water balance not even a little.
You canāt rely on fast imp for every game, itās an ace up to your sleeve, but not one for every game.
You can pull it off about 1 time out of 5 to surprise your enemy, but no more.
Also, fast condos isnāt not comparable to franks knight rush, or Mayan archer rush (to name a coupleā¦).
just wonderingā¦ are italians the hard counter to spanish? since GC easily counter the conq, as well as their cavaliers. their cheaper BBC beat the faster firing BBC, and of course they have the condo to fight any (randomly made) HC.
leaving it a match up between spains not so great eco buffs, and italyās faster aging?
It should be that way, but conqs are faster, train proportionally faster, and have higher attack, they are more versitile and you canāt train enough GC to counter them.
Faster building is a bit of an eco bonus, you spend less time building and more time gathering.
Plus, castle drop + conqs isnāt easy to counter.
But in reality the TT of the GC prevent you from using the GC effectively, but if they outnumber you and are able to retreat fast when they lack the numbers, they canāt really do their job.
thats trueā¦ i just thought compared to say other civs that rely on skirms or simply archer blob to deal with conqs, italians seems to have a more reliable option as their GC also helps if the spaniard side techs knightsā¦
Italians vs spanish are better off by using skirms instead of GC.
They can win, but they donāt have any advantages, on paper condos help too, but in reality, it unlikely that spanish will go for HC, and conqs can outrun condos.
Imo they are not counter pick. If GCs were trained in a decent time, a meatshield with GCs is difficult to handle for Spanish. In practice, as every other civ, Spanish can kill italians way earlier. Italians will never arrive to the point of having 4+ castles spamming GCā¦
But clearly for Italians it is one of the preferred matches, since you lut the opponent on a timer
it was just to say the logic