That’s was your idea, it were you who said that the free armor bonus was weak in the early stages and that an eco bonus was better.
This is an eco bonus, but not for the early ages.
I said that was weak, really? I was quite wrong, sorry. Free archer armors is better in the early stages evan than +1 PA if we consider that it affects skyrms.
Regarding the eco bonus, it gives for sure something allo in the early stages, unless you never loose units. We may discuss on how much it is in the basis of the percentage, maybe not a lot. Clearly you get more resources in the later stages.
I am not saying you are wrong in any way. Simply I proposed a buff which is weak in early stages (because in my opinion it was enough) and you said that such a buff is too weak in the early stages.
I agree it is weak, not sure if it is not enough for Italians. And that is what we discussed. T
Am I missing anything?
The problem with Italians is that they already have a lot of discount bonuses so is hard to them giving a early advantage bonus (They even save resources at advancing by age.)
The only one that is viable is a reduction of the training time of the Genoese Crossbow
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Yeah, plus a military bonus maybe (reasonably on the archers)…
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I have always said that petards should become gunpowder units (and thus buffing turks and italians).
After seeing this video, i am not sure if i want this even more or not…
Maybe it was about another bonus? Now I can’t properly remember, or maybe it wasn’t you? However I remember that the general intention was to give them something (either eco or military) that helps them in the eraly ages too.
That bonus it’s not weak, it has the flaw that the resources basically gets back to you with a age too late, so when they “value” less, it is tough strong when you are just spamming units in super late game.
The Evil Morty track was killer.
here I want to ask a question coming to my mind fron the GC topic.
Let us assume italians are fixed with an archer military buff in additionto the GC TT fix. The most reasonable ones are +1 attack or +1PA.
Should these buffs be extended to the GC?
- +1 attack GC has the same attack of other archer UUs but less range (excluding ckn which has almost double the attack)
- +1 PA makes it better vs archers and skyrms, but still countered without too many issues
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Mmm that’s a tricky one…
On paper they should… since the main reason why one should chose the GC over arbs is to counter cavalry, but for that they sacrifice range, so those should be the only difference between the 2.
In my opinion the GC with either +1 attack or +1PA wouldn’t be OP, but people already complain about how strong they are vs cavalry and by how they got more HP (10 more HP helps, but they would still vulnerable to skirms).
So to avoid that people would rant about it and then ask for a nerf, I say no, they shouldn’t.
That’s another reason why I also like the free archer armor, since indirectly helps the GC too.
So, regarding these options (in addition to TT fix):
- Archer-line +1 attack (or if you prefer archers +1 attack, GC -1 attack)
- Archer-line +1 PA
Which is the one fitting better italian needs?
Extra attack for the generic archer-line who are easily massed is too OP
Meh, just nerf their anti-cav bonus by a bit if it’s a problem. Skirms and siege will still be a good counter. They’d need to be in perfect GC+Hussar+BBC deathball to be broken
Both have pros and cons… it’s difficult to say…
But I think that +1PA is more safe and less broken.
+1atk could work too, but should start only in castle.
Are you sure guys? I mean, if I compare with Ethiopians, which have a superior land eco, I do not see a huge difference. Actually I see it but in favor of Ethiopians.
+1 attack is +20% dps on a unit with 5 attack. Ethiopians have a similar bonus around 18%. +1 attack gets worse and worse as the attack of the unit increases, it is basically a +10% for arbs. The Ethiopians bonus is always constant and has the hidden advantage of easier micro, in addition to the huge advantage of letting you to shoot the last arrow first. Moreover Ethiopians bonus is better if you miss the shot, right?
So I would not say it is broken. Better than +1PA except in archer fights, but overall worse than the Ethiopian bonus. Italians arb would have a still worse dps (which is the most important thing), despite more bulk after pavise.
+1PA is clearly way simpler, so it can work as well.
Does also a +1/1 armor make sense? Just for Archer-line I am saying. Italians would get as final unit a +2/2 arb which would be good overall…
remember that it’s +1 to (attack-armour) though. It can be as much as +100%. Against FU units with 3 base armour (eg Paladin) its +33%, and against FU units with 4 base armour (eagle, ESkirm) its +50%.
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yes clearly with armor is more complicated, also vs larger PA targets is +0%.
That is why
And what about +1/1 armor? Is it enough to take +1 knight hit? After adding pavise it works, right?
Fletching archer will do 3 damage than 2 vs skirms (getting armor in this stage is rare), 4 instead of 3 vs scouts and loom vills.
Xbows will do 3 damage instead of 2 against +2 knights, 2 damage vs 1 to mangonels which is huge. Remember xbows are ranged, extra attack will just stack up with more numbers.
Arbs with 11 attack with extra Pavise armor, with all the support units Italians get with FU Hussars, condos and cheaper BBC would be too much.
That’s like Huskarls, Inca eagles, rams. Handful of units
Yeah it is definitely more complicated.
And what about this?
In feudal before any upgrades, a standard archer would have 150 dpm (you can see it better in dpm than dps) the etiopians have 183, an Italians archer with +1 would have 180, so they would actually be on the level of etiopians.
The gap increase a bit after TR, but it’s still on the same level.
EDIT: in the previous test I actually factor in fletching, but the principle is the same.
Yes, in the end it’s always more shots.
More than +1 MA (the one that pavise give) doesn’t help the archers anymore.
Yes, that would be the advantage, the higher is the armor, the better is +1 over faster RoF.
Well, consider that vs huskarls, italians arbs would inflict 2 damage instead of 1,a and vs EEW it would be 3 instead of 2, they would still be great counters, but you would see the difference.
A can agree on that, I’m too worried about if that would make Italians arbs OP, but I think that it’s still worth discussing it.
Just out of curiosity, I wanted to ask you people this question and hear your opinions about it:
Which between those 2 units is now the best meatshield for the Italians ranged units?
(in general, on most maps, strategies, games and so on…)
- FU Hussars
- New Pavise Condos
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I’m not considering pikes, Champs and cavaliers since are more situetional or lack an upgrade/bonus for them.
To me, one is a trash units, slightly faster, with a bit more HP and PA, the other have more MA and atk, and don’t need any upgrades to unlock.
I want to know what would you choose, why, when and where.
It actually does, but not consistently. For example an arb with a total of 3+2=5 MA would die in the same number of hits as a normal arb to a FU cavalier. However, it would tank 1 more hit from a paladin. If MA is given it, should be only to arbs, GC and HC though, skirms shouldn’t get it. I would rather have +1 PA for all archery range units and GCs.
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