New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

This is absolutely true. The main thing this civ needs (in addition to the fix of the training time of the genoese crossbowman) is an early stage push.

I like the idea of a market bonus, however balancing Italians require a lot of attention to have a limited effect on the pure water play. Despite interesting, I agree with @DoctBaghi that the proposal sounds a bit weak.

The logic behind a pure land military bonus is that in pure water it does not count.

What I really like about the extra armor proposal is that, if it includes skyrms, it gives Italians the identity of a civ countering everything from range. This is verified with one of the following:

  • archer-line and skyrms get +1 PA
  • free archer armors and pavise affecting skirms again

Italians got a negligible buff in something they did not need. Italians main weakness is the early game. The second worst issue is the lack of a cavalry counter. The third one is the lack of a late game poweful unit.

Faster techs is not that great, but if you add age up the things change a lot. It becomes a much better bonus. The issue is that it affects water and in that case you should nerf the water bonus. But if you do so, the easiest thing would be just a buff in the age up discount (this option has been discussed a lot).
I would keep this bonus as very good for other civs like byz for instance

@AbuzzJam4677680, I like the idea of an eco bonus, but to avoid a water buff it should be a military discount.

I can propose this: gunpowder discount at 20% modified in:

gunpowder and archery range units (except CA) cost 20% less

Basically this is an extension of the gunpowder discount to archer-line and skyrms.

Some comments:

  • @DoctBaghi will not like this idea since it is a discount bonus 11 Do not worry, I am still supporting the +1PA
  • yes, there are overlapping issues. Like with byz. But byz share a discounted camel with berbers and a discounted halab with goths. Portuguese and Koreans share discounts with everyone, including slavs and vikings. Magyars and Berbers are another example for scout-line. So I do not see a very big issue
  • the skyrm discount is weaker than byz. This makes sense, since byzs would remain the counter civ. It is 5% better bonus as for the camel discount compared to imp berbers
  • comparison with mayans. the archer-line discount does not affect the UU as in the case of mayans. They will have still a much better eco and a larger discount in imp. The 2 discounts on archer-line line are equal in castle age only as in the case of discounted scouts for berbers and Magyars
  • this maintain the idea of a range counter vs everything for Italians (still this is a skyrm buff).

So in case the GC viability wasn’t dead, this will definitely kill it

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Just give them 50 extra food and wood when aging up, like Ethiopians. Much simpler to implement.

Bulgarian have 50%faster silversmith, and Malians 80% University. In Bulgarian case, is a strong bonus, as they need it for infantry and Calvary.

Giving 50% to everything would be too much. If is for everything, 10 or 20% sounds better

Wouldn’t this buff water as well?

I thought there would be a specific option appear in the market for Italians. Besides, I prefer a more unique feature rather than similar bonus like viet.

Then, 80 wood/food to trade in 100 Food/wood 3 times in the Market per age. Wood and Food are interchangeable at a lower cost for 3 times per age. I think this greatly increases the flexibility while not giving them a big early buff. This also allows aging up sooner.

Why? GC needs a TT buff regardless

Why would I make GCs if arbs are now even cheaper and made from ranges too and are pretty much better

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Mayans say hi

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I answered this for mayans and byzs

Still if an eco bonus is desired I think the most probable solution is a balancing between age up and dock tech discounts


Because vs cavalry GC is better. For instance, vs massed paladins archer civs like mayans, Ethiopians, and britons go halabs.

Tbh I am not say that it is a great idea. I am saying that if you want an eco bonus with italians there are not so many options which do not touch water.

I am more comfortable with one of the following:

probably the first one more. I get you are more towards an armor bonus as well.

I don’t mean to be rude
 But i think the convo might be rather stale when after over SIX HUNDRED comments the thread is still revolving around the exact same comment


At what point can we say this comment has had enough repetition? :joy::joy:

I don’t think its helpful to just keep repeating the same thing over and over and over (x 600) to basically the same people

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This is literally the mayan bonus. And mayans have a UU archer just like italy. Im all for overlap but not direct copy clone bon bons. There’s no justification for it. Regardless of what you tried to explain. It’s a copy paste bon bon.

Other overlap excludes certain units and has different %. Or armour buff vs hp buff. Or direct income vs indirect saving.

This is literally a copy paste with the exact same %

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imagine if after 600 comments the devs decide to leave italians as they are 11

btw, i still think they do not need a buff and that not every civ should be competitive in arabia/have a strong early game

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Could very well be the case, devs have become more conservative with the changes lately. Which is not a bad thing, given that the game balance is not in a bad spot right now (though it can still be improved)

I agree with you, but it’s not like italian late game is that amazing either, they have a decent tech tree, but that’s about it. They could use a little bit of help, without going overboard with the buffs of course.

I do not get the point. We were discussing other two bonuses like faster techs (which is the first time) and a potential eco bonus. It is reasonable to compare them with the “best candidate” in the moment. I mean, if you or someone else propose a different idea, why not comparing it with the most accepted in the thread?

I do not get what you are suggesting, sorry.

The mayan bonus is different, it affects also the uu and does not affect skyrms, and has a different value exceptin castle age. But I can get there is a bit of overlapping. I was not that convinced of the fact. I just wanted to say also that an eco bonus is very difficult for this civ unless it is a military discount.
I mean, I can agree with you that the discount extension is not that original, as I said I was not very convinced in the beginning

I think the same.

The only original discount bonus left are a general food discount bonus. Portuguese have gold discount, koreans wood discount (not siege), mayans cheaper archers, vikings cheaper ships, slavs cheaper siege, italians cheaper gunpowder, etc.

Given that scouts cost only food and that magyars and berbers have discounted cavalry, i would exclude cavalry for this dicount. So the food discount would apply to all barrack units, HC, skirms and spears . Wait
 HC?

Now what i think bout it, italians already have cheaper HC, and cheaper fisher ships, so i would save this bonus for another civ.

Thus, imho, i would make this:

  1. Revalance between age up, fishing ships and dock bonuses
  2. If not: armor related archer bonus (free armor techs or extra armor bonus)
  3. Also,even with both bonuses applied: general HC buff.
  4. Edit: also, reduce TT of GC

Yeah, I forgot to mention that the dock wouldn’t be affected by faster researching, but you are right, aging up sooner would still affect water balance.

It could work, basically it would be like mayans, but stronger at the start and weaker in the late.

A bit like the Magyars-berbers bonuses.

Just to avoid miscommunication, you mean to affect GC too? Because there are people who already see reduction of the TT too much, if you give them a discount too then there is the risk that it’s too much.

There is this risk.

Yeah sorry, I forgot to mention some bits.
Then however it wouldn’t work, it was just some random thoughts


It would be better to simply fix some prices for maybe one or more resources.
Like the price for buying 100 food cannot be more than 110 gold, and cannot get less than 90 gold when selling 100 food.
Of course those numbers are just an example.

Maybe another potential bonus could be faster TT for the xbows and skirms, like 40% faster.
Considering that in Italy at the time every citizen was conscripted on learning how to use the xbow, it seem fit a bonus similar to the franks UT.

I know that it is similar to the Britons bonus, but this one would affect only 2 units (not the whole range) and it would be stronger (but limited to the Italians only).