DPS of a uhlan with the HP of a hussar, what can go wrong
I was even playing a game vs some pikes and they murder them cause they deal so much damage before pikes can get hits in
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If they survive longer it means reinforcements have more time to arrive which puts your cavalry in danger better to kill them ASAP. Also it’s easy to split a formation so that some units are unsnared.
I’d say the mahout is better at snaring because of the AOE it snares more and even splitting formations don’t work.
What do you think trample mode is for? It’s for snaring! The leading 2 or 3 cavalry snare in trample while the rest get a good surround.
and then the cav splits to snare them all, thats also easy. There is a reason that mamlukes are snare machines, they stick to your army, ensuring a snare and they dont die. Who gives a shit about reinforcements, there is abus in the back and they are coming as well.
aoe dont snare…and who uses trample for snare, it slows you down
I’d rather half an opponent dead then their whole army half-damaged. Damaged units deal full damage, dead units do no damage.
Snaring is what you do when you can’t kill them, your priorities are wrong. Snaring benefits cavalry way more than it does ranged units and the quicker they mop up the better since cavalry are relatively expensive you wants yours to survive longer so they can live to fight another day.
It only slows down the ones you set to trample, the rest of them can melee. You don’t set all of them to trample that’s just stupid, but a few? sure.it slow them down so the rest of your cavalry can surround them and chop them into bits.
You do know how china’s cav-range unit comp works right? the cav snares so that the enemy is kept in range and the army in the back can fire uncontested. Heck that is how musk-hus work
Heck that is even how china use changdaos, charge them in, snare the enemy while range unit just fires
Snaring is what is needed for you to kill them
Mmm, 6.9 speed alone isnt enough any more with the power creep in the game. FI, Germans get that 10% all cav speed from spanish riding school - so 7.4 speed ulhans, 6.6 war wagons, 7.9 blackriders, 7.7 winged hussar, etc. Then there’s also the new oromo, which have 30 attack and also the same attack rate as Deli. And we gotta remember, the new royal house units have cav and natives/mercs that also have faster attack rate, splash or the whole promotion mechanic while often getting dual resistance and/or higher speed.
Ottos got a wide makeover on their unit roster, but they also were ignored for a buch of patches while other civs were scaled up. The huge power jump, in the end, works out to comparable overall power level. A nerf to Deli might be valid, but just for their age 2 strength, and thats iff they can beat their counters in age 2/3, pikes and goons, respectively.
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EXACTLY ! !!!
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You can’t really compare a deli with oromo, the oromo costs considerably more and is 3 pop, the deli should be no where near as good as an oromo.
Sure, they shouldn’t dominate vs the likes of Oromo and Boyars, but its also a fact that either of these do beat them. And Uhlans, while weaker, have a loooot of mechanics to enable them past the low hp.
Again, I dont mind a nerf, but its specifically saying that 6.9 speed is goon enough - its just not. Ottos really dont have much going for heavy cav once the sipahi push trials off and without other means to enable heavy cav, there’s no reason to trade 5 hp and attack for a pretty meagre boost of 0.15 speed. The base stats scale with the limited upgrades and cards Otto has for cav so it needs alot more than movespeed to be an even trade.
The speed is fine, the only issue with the unit is it’s trading 20% less attack for 50% faster attack speed and it’s just too much. A small fire rate nerf and the unit is fine.
In age 4, not in age 2. Not to mention its a card in age 4 that is never used
Lets put it this way, at base in terms of speed its the 4th fastest hand cav in the game. The units that are faster then it all have restrictions or different designs
Sowar (7.5 speed) - widely considered to be bad, much much lower HP, much much lower DPS, but cheaper (80 per pop vs 100), more range armour
Steppe Rider (7.25) - Less HP per pop, less DPS per pop, only slight cheaper (85 vs 100) and it literally cant be built individually, also 1 pop cap so they are hard to mass
Raider ( 7 ) - More HP per pop (14%), more DPS per pop (17%), cost 40% more per pop and again is a 1 pop cav
So to the closest comparison, the raider- which is a pretty strong cav, near cossack level power, The deli is about 15% less stats while being about more then twice cheaper, while being 2 pop so its easier to mass. That isnt keeping up with power creep, that is just overshooting it.
Do you not remember otto was already performing well in the ladder pre-patch, it was even performing well in the tourney, even without the Babary revolt? They were still comparable to other civs. Heck we even had people complaining that otto came back out of nowhere
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Look, the +10% speed as a bit more useful on cav than +10% melee resistance and both are age 4 cards. That might just be our playstyles talking - I dont really like to run heavy cav head on with other heavy cav and I find movespeed is way nicer for getting on top of easier targets. At any rate, if +10% speed is so irrelevant, why can +0.15 be enough compensation for a worse res distribution and less hp/attack.
That aside, there’s something to point out with the given comparisons; note that they have alot more possible multipliers and cards to enable them. Granted, the civs have more optimal stats such that those cards aren’t often used, but the fact remains that if one wants to build a strategy around them, its easy.
Sowars end up way better vs light infantry than any huss variant and are covered by zamburaks/gurkha - which alot say are the really good at their respective roles. Steppe riders are as weak as they are cheap, but also work off of multipliers and card to specialize against infantry. Raiders - same theme; multipliers, cards, specialties. Even the Uhlans make up for fragility by massing up free with every shipment. Instead of looking at specialists over the movespeed, a better comparison is the Boyar for similar attack speed and damage.
I’d agree that Deli overperform as general purpose heavy cav, but if I got you right you want to remove all the extra dps and leave it on the level of the mentioned specialists with only the 2% extra speed as a bonus. No added multipliers, mechanics or strats for them - just a broadside nerf and the sole 2 cards Otto can improve them with (if one would bother). Thats a bridge too far.
They were still comparable to other civs
Almost noone played them citing boring and repetivie timings, weakness to heavy and light cav, and the one time someone pulled of an tc eco strat involving 4 tcs, it got deleted. Lets not even go there.
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Because its free instead of being locked behind a cards, and not to mention in its current form, it has Higher DPS then hussars
if you ever actually do the numbers on steppe rider, they are only 10 hp off a hussar per pop and have the same attack per pop. They are not weaker by any strech, their downside is that they cant be spammed as part of the way to scale them back
And are you not getting that the raiders have more stats then the deli even without the multipliers?
I was saying that if their only change to the regular hussar was the speed and cost, that would be more then enough
if you ever actually do the numbers on steppe rider, they are only 10 hp off a hussar per pop and have the same attack per pop. They are not weaker by any strech, their downside is that they cant be spammed as part of the way to scale them back
And are you not getting that the raiders have more stats then the deli even without the multipliers?
What is even your argument here? Was the comparison not done to highlight why Deli are overperforming? If so, whats the point of digging in about the higher stats of the other specialist heavy cav variants? In the end, it just proves my point more that your examples out perform huss via specialization. In the first place, I think you’re trying to scale Deli against the Hussar it displaced, where I’m trying to draw parallels with the new native/merc cav from the new royal houses - Boyars, Winged Hussars, Bosniaks, etc.
I was saying that if their only change to the regular hussar was the speed and cost, that would be more then enough
Then to clarify some more, would that mean you think its better for Deli to have the current hp/speed tradeoff but revert the attack to 30/1.5 again?
My point is that the Deli is comparable in capabilities to these very specialised cav without their downsides (the higher cost, being 1 pop, cant be trained individually) so their so the so for the deli to keep its current stats will require much greater restrictions or costs or you nerf its capabilites down to the level you would expect of that class of cav ( ie the standard cav that a civ has acess to).
Why is this a comparison you want to make for its capabilities? Those are all units that have their own restrictions on their capabilities and access, they are either Mercs or native units, all of which are not accessible right out of the gate in a stable and have a build limit
Of course I am making a comparison to the hussar it replaced, it replaced the hussar, we aren’t thinking about putting boyars into stables, that would be beyond busted.
It would be more balanced then what we have now.
Would it be a better unit? No, ofcourse not the current one is way stronger, its way too strong. as stated elsewhere , it has 25% more DPS then normal hussars with a measly 2%hp debuff and more speed
If it was just a HP vs speed trade off that would be arguable, it would be able to dictate cav and melee fights while not nessarily be able to win them
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This discussion seems to be going around in circles a bit.
Deli has 17% less attack and 1.5% less HP than a Hussar but has about 2% more speed and 50% more attack speed.
Costs are very similar with deli being slightly more gold.
All that needs to be done is make the attack speed 25% faster than a normal hussar, nothing else needs to be changed and the unit will be balanced.
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yes, just nerf the ROF, like i said from the start
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Well, I defaulted to comparing it to royal house cav since, typically, natives and mercs on the KotM patch release just felt like straight upgrades to existing units. The boyar in particular stood out for having the closest stats to a regular hussar - same dps/speed with 20 more hp/cost. I was used to natives being slightly weaker/cheaper than comparable units so the inversion was memorable. The boyars hussar like stats and 1 attack rate felt like a natural comparison with deli on a pure stat basis - even though the deli easily beats the boyar head on.
Would it be a better unit? No, ofcourse not the current one is way stronger, its way too strong. as stated elsewhere , it has 25% more DPS then normal hussars with a measly 2%hp debuff and more speed
Nah, at that point I agree with the proposed change. If the damage is rescaled back to 30/1.5 that’d be fine; I honestly dont want any civ to have a unit that straight overwhelms its closest competition, I just dont also want it to be significant weaker without compensation either. An hp/speed trade with a cost rebalance on an otherwise generic hussar is reasonable, more so than leaving the damage at 25/1.5.
and chimu do 30 DPS per pop because they can attack better as units
Naginatas are much better against skirm and tank more against ranged.
There is no way delis will trade 50 pop delis vs 50 pop sepoys sepoy will lose 17 pop.
I tried the same with someone which made his sepoy on melee (it was by far not perfect) but it still remained 38 sepoys.
You can try the same with lancers or uhlans (for uhlans make like 65 pop because of ress and shipments feature) and in these kind of scenes the sepoy also would probably be 33 because musket shoots of sepoys are very bad against cav.
I think they should get an nerf by 2 dmg so they dont completly destroy cheap anticav but your post is not useful for an PvP scenario where musks always need to get melee.
Ottoman cav in age II definitly needs a nerf but I think after age 3 they could give ottomans some “deli” buffing card maybe the “akincis” in Age III could also give the attack back which gets nerfed or an better multiplier against vills (1,5 against vills? ) so they have still his own use like spanish lancers, japans naginatas, chinacos, swedish tanky huss.
Ottomans have like the spanish an mediocre boom but an very strong millitary to compensate imo, so having a better cav (than the normal cav) in the midgame would open the options for hand cav widely.