Next European Civ That Should Get An Update?

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
21

I just found out that the name Grenzer has been used as a Revolutionary variant of the Hungarian Revolution. But I think the Grenzers were the most famous infantry in Austria, and they are very reasonable for the Austrian Support.

I don’t want to just rename the Grenzer to the Austrian Jäger. Maybe rename the Revolutionary variant of the Hungarian Revolution to Honvéd, and leave the name Grenzer for Austrian Support.

The tern Honvéd was first used to refer to the volunteers in the revolution, and I think it is more appropriate to refer to the Hungarian Revolutionary, no matter whether the Germans would be changed to have those Supports.

22

Germans would be nice, because their merc identity has been compromised by Sweden. Making them able to train the german mercs on barracks and stables would overlap with the Sweden, but I don’t know what could be done.

Would be nice to add Polish Winged Lancers skin (could be reworked as a mercenary), and some other rework related to consolidate their HRE identity.

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23

Mercenary available is good for sweedens, for german I prefeer add new mercenaries shipments in age II, rework “wallenstein” merc/tech/church and add a new shipment in church/card.

And copy a similar card like the new brittish card “Greenwich” :stuck_out_tongue:

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24

Honestly, I thought your idea was good, but I have the caveat that these techs are available at TC, and are only searched once. Perhaps it would be something more viable infinite shipping letters with regular troops from each of these regions.

  • Austrians would deliver redesigned grenadiers (sort of like the Mexican Soldado - but weaker and no bonus on musket and bayonet attacks, bonus only on grenade attack).
    • Prussians: Musketeers, but regular musketeers, maybe with a +10% resistance bonus…
  • Bavarians: Delivery of the Chevauxleger unit
  • Saxony: Because of the personal union between the electorate of Saxony and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth you get Ulans and an exclusive technology from the arsenal for them (here we have to use our imagination to think of something)
  • Finally, I exchange Wuttemberg for the Ecclesiastical Electorates: hand over a small contingent of Swiss guards and a Legate (a unit similar to the Mexican priest)
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25

I did it on purpose.

For infinite shipment, you just need to make them into cards. But that doesn’t really deal with the Germans’ problem, that people wanted Prussia and Austria as different civs.

In my design, the most important thing is to “retrofit” small part of the German tech tree to simulate a different civ. For example, when the player chooses Austrian Support, the German tech tree will be Austrianized to appear as if it were an Austrian civ.

Therefore, this design concept is not suitable for infinite shipment, and picking only one option is not suitable for even being a card in my opinion. Conversely, it would be very fitting to make them a kind of tech similar to Politician and Revolution mechanics.

Btw, this design is completely not about the advancing the age and revolution, so even after the player choose either Austria, Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony or Württemberg, it can still be revolt to Hungary or Gran Colombia because the civ is still Germans.

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26

I understood better what you meant. The suggested mechanics are really good… I believe the Austrians could also give a line infantry option.
Anyway, I think many people here agree that the Germans need some better options than they have today.

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27

Ottomans and Germans most voted?

It is noted that each one chooses his favorite civ.

The ottomans, good rush and good ff, and they already have new units (Nizam), what more do you want?

And Germans, good eco, good raid and good skirmisher, what more do you want?

There are other civs that need an urgent rework.

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28

Cant you think of what they could give the Spanish?

Ok, I tell you.

To begin with, skirmishers were created by the Spanish against Napoleon. Even the Iberians were already using lightning attacks against the Romans.

The Spanish must have good skirms.

O Second, upgrade the musks or replace them with arquebusiers. Early game unit.

They can also be of the third age and replace them with the skirms.

Or third, introduce the Jesuits or the Portuguese gunboat which is clearly a Spanish arquebusier.

All this leads to removing the unction card that is useless or reworked.

Spain and all civs needs good units of range, its the metagame.

29

Ha ha its their best card for treaty, if you remove that they are dead

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30

Skirmisher weren’t created by spanish… What is this crappy and not historical take on this?! Spanish coined the term guerrilla, although a similar term was already coined by french during the seven years war in america…

Spanish must have good skirms? Based on what?

Dunno, but this seems to be biased toward some sort of spanish nationalism

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31

y tu? eh? las guerrillas hispánicas vienen desde hace bastante tiempo atrás, incluso en la batalla de Cartagena de indias quedo demostrado o los episodios de las “encamisadas” como en la batalla de castelnouvo, nacionalismo español dices? anda a joder, lo que mínimo se busca es que España tenga algo bueno! escriben mentira de ella, le dan los peores tratos unidades rancias y no tiene ningún bonus decente, España desde el vainilla a sido una civ basura, y ahora apenas y se sostiene (y que conste no soy español, soy chileno, pero ya no soporto mas el sesgo de la leyenda negra) y parece que tu ocultas cierto antisemitismo español.

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32

Spanish natiosnalism? Hahaha

Learn the true history, not the history of England.

33

No, treaty is dead

It’s as simple as activating it only in treaty or doing a rework as I said

34

Cheap anti-fantry, doesn’t need to be strong. And Nizam are pretty niche.

Their eco isn’t that good until Guild artisans in age IV it’s expensive to get up and running.

And their skirmisher is actually awful, you pay 400 /400 more for a royal guard upgrade over a conventional guard upgrade but practically no cards for them unlike french skirmishers.

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35

Even with all the current advantages, they suffer in the NR compared to the rest of the European civilizations.

In addition, the other civilizations have a ‘native infinite’ card.

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36

Lol, this is hilarious, no, i have nothing against spanish, i have a lot against people that simply cannot accept that their nation wasn’t special, nor accept it wasn’t a paragon of justice and fair treament…
Rogarding skirmishers, if we go by their use in war then the first units were made by germans, in 1631, by William V, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, of course then the seven years war in america and the american revolutionary war kinda brought them to the spotlight, and the british were the first to actually inquadrate them in the regular army in 1800 with the rifle regiment, after 4 years the french created the voltiguers regiments…
Now, regarding spanish skirmishers from the penisular war that are discussed, based on what the irregulars groups did it would be more correct to give spanish a crad that let their skirmishers go into stealth and also get a multipliers against vills, since what the spanish irregulars did mostly was attacking the rear guard of french armies, which was composed mostly by conscripts or civilians…
In the end, i’m all for making spain a more modern civ, i never liked their archaic focus, but claiming wrong stuff based on some weird wrong historical POV is not great…
Also, i have no idea what is this black legend you are talking about, could you please enlighten me?

37

Yes, spanish revisioned history…
AH! True history is not the one you know for sure, and the one i studied wasn’t even from an english POV…

38

But they have already been updated, not like other civs, so queue

39

Correct, I agree with you.

Regarding the anti-Hispanic black legend, we could talk about it for hours.

Look for information about it but yes, do not look for English sources.

I don’t want to talk about it anymore or open another debate because it’s not the site and this is a game, although in a way it affects a lot.

40

About the alledged Hispanophobia and Black Legend

Better than English sources, read Spanish sources against the myth of the Black Legend. The idea behind the Black Legend is that is built around the nostalgia of when Spain was a great empire.

It is true that the compendium have a little bias agains the Spanish, but that is all. Because Spanish appears as the bad guys in Act I, but the Russians appears dehumanized as strelets pawn hordes without proper characters in Act II (you remember the strelet devilish portrait in vanilla?), and the British and USA as bad colonizers in TAD and Shadow campaigns.

Why the Spanish are the enemies in a lot of games in the early modern history? Because usually you play as the small against the big empire, and Spain was the big empire at the moment. It’s not fun to play the big Empire and win, there’s no challenge. In other games around American independence, the British are the bad people. But I never haven’t heard about Britishphobia.

It’s true that they have been overfocused with the Inquisition thing, and that has to do more with the Monthy Phyton gag than a Black Legend

Guerrilla

Spain didn’t invented Guerrilla Warfare. How old is ambushing in military history? Feigned retreat? Light skirmish units?

Citing Iberians (Lusitianians weren’t Iberians, BTW) to justify a genealogy of what Spain did 1400 years after (if we salty take the creation of Spain on the union of Castile and Aragon crown) it’s clearly national essentialism.

Gameplay

Back to the real topic: Spain, when the automatic crates with logistician were implemented, was clearly OP, they have to be nerfed. I don’t play Spain so I don’t know if they are in the right spot now, it deserves a balanced place, like every civ. I main Russian and Spanish Logistician still makes a solid push.

Why the Spanish are archaic and have morrion helmets? Because it represents the height of their empire. You don’t like that they are represented in the old way and they should have a more modern army? Other civs also get a lot of early modern era theme, like Sweden, half roster of Germans, Japan, probably China, half roster of Ottomans, Holland… Rodeleros are a bit off because they were used like 30 years only in the Tercios, but they represent spanish conquistadores that went against Aztec and Inca empire. The bonus of Spain are related to arrive the early in the Old World and having a powerful empire in the early modern time.

As Spain, you aren’t relegated to train Pikeman and Crossbows. You can actually train Musks, Skirmishers and Hussars. Clearly they aren’t the best, but Spain wasn’t a powerhouse during XIX century. Except Bostanci Hussars, other musk, skirms and hussars royal guards are related to late XVIII-XIX, when Spain lost their colonial empire. Do you want to represent Spain at their height or not?

Proposals

This is where I go purposeful with you, from a no nationalist POV. Two ideas:

1/ Spain didn’t invented the Guerrilla warfare, but it’s very fair to say that they kicked the ■■■ to French in the Peninsular War, and gave the name of warfare that existed before, to a common used term in English, French, German, etc.

Some card or bonus could be given to them but with caution to avoid making them OP with the Missionary aura.

2/ Speaken of, Inquisition and Religion. Religion had (like every European empire at that time) a very big importance regarding power and rule, but that thing wasn’t exclusively Spanish. It’s true that Spain was a Catholic faith keeper, but maybe it could changed to avoid the Inquisition tone of the Missionaries.

Maybe, the Unction card could be changed the name to Curas Guerrilleros, giving to the Missionaries a new skin based on a mounted Jerónimo Merino

That would be based on the history that some priest were guerrilla leaders in the Peninsular War.

3/ A historical scenario with the Spanish would be cool. The Napoleonic invasion of the peninsula would be a great topic to explore, it could fit an European themed DLC with that modern flavour that you want.

(Edit) 4/ For flavour, although I think that it doesn’t bring much value, Cannoneers and Conquistadores cards could be given to Spain and Portugal.

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